tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post2888619147456136665..comments2023-11-05T03:06:30.977-08:00Comments on Mormon Midrashim: Part Four: In Which I Finally Get to Gay MarriageJames Goldberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-39781820249021826092012-10-07T20:08:45.085-07:002012-10-07T20:08:45.085-07:00James- Your blog on same-sex marriage was enlighte...James- Your blog on same-sex marriage was enlightening. I would just like to state my beliefs as I view this topic with an eternal perspective. However, I must admit it is difficult to look that way with our own individual imperfections, but even more complicated when those matters involve us as a community, nation, or even on a global level. God who sees through the eternal looking glass understands wisdom much more effectively than us mortals. <br /><br />The Family: A proclamation to the World reads, "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual pre-mortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." <br /><br />I often wonder if those that have same-sex attraction developed those tendencies before this mortal life knowing that we didn't have a physical, but a spiritual body. Nevertheless, thanks to modern revelation we know that gender was essential characteristic of that spiritual body.<br /><br />In Alma 13:3 (speaking of priests) And this is manner after which they were ordained-- being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good , and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.<br /><br />I always seem to be very intrigued when the scriptures speak about a life before mortality. Agency was a detrimental part of our Father's plan. Even though, we could not literally sin physically being within the presence of God and being without the mortal body within that realm, I believe we still could develop life changing eternal decisions being able to choose good from evil within our ante life. Thus those choices we made in our spiritual bodies affect the way our minds operate emotionally and spiritually in this estate. <br /><br />D&C 130:19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.<br /><br />Now I know this scripture talks about what we gain in this life continues into the afterlife, however wouldn't the objective be the same if we apply the spiritual traits we developed within our first estate continued with us to this probationary life. We were influenced by good and evil there, so we all may have developed some good talents and personality traits along with some evil tendencies and impurities. Therefore, we are facing the blessings and consequences from the decisions we made in that life, now in this life. Life is eternal!Christopher Williamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-15289108507527255762012-07-18T18:08:01.201-07:002012-07-18T18:08:01.201-07:00Sorry to come to the party late - I really enjoyed...Sorry to come to the party late - I really enjoyed reading this series of posts and how thoughtfully they presented this issue. I wanted to reply to this comment, because as gay marriage is legalized and other anti-discrimination statues are put in place, religious groups and individuals are increasingly having to deal with this in the courts. A couple of news articles that illustrate this: <br />http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91486340<br />http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/301641/canadian-crackdown-michael-coren<br />It will be interesting to see how this continues to play out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-89145283513527258052012-05-24T16:02:49.230-07:002012-05-24T16:02:49.230-07:00Great thoughts, James. By the way, your link to Ja...Great thoughts, James. By the way, your link to Jane Galt's (super) article is broken (it needs a prefix):<br /><br />http://www.janegalt.net/blog/archives/005244.html<br /><br />Richard Wilkins has commented on another purpose of traditional marriage that is independent of children. To summarize, there's reason to believe that it significantly bridges the gender gap, helping men and women take the leap of trying to understand each other despite the ways that we are programmed to think of each other as irredeemably Other and not worth the effort. In other words, it's the main catalyst to the intergender glue that society needs. Without intergender commitments one couple at a time, the tendency is for men and women's worst qualities to not be ameliorated by the other's best, on a large scale.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14498290529550647229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-14175057794140045662012-05-17T02:01:24.198-07:002012-05-17T02:01:24.198-07:00Wow, I found the 4 parts fascinating. Thank you! ...Wow, I found the 4 parts fascinating. Thank you! The cultural study over history is very intriguing. I found these two questions particularly interesting:<br />"Would including same-sex relationships under the legal umbrella of marriage affect vertical relationships in the long term?"<br />and<br />"But do I think we can treat traditional marriage and same-sex marriage as identical without affecting the strength of our vertical relationships in some way? " <br />I wish, wish, wish we had more research on this! I can only hope that we well document and research our current same-sex foster homes and same-sex adoption homes so that we have more information for our future generations. <br />And your formula analogy gave me a good chuckle- will have to think about that one :) Thanks for the discussion. I am still pondering it all out in my mind.CKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14734405080911039533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-3182506380897869912012-05-15T18:56:39.724-07:002012-05-15T18:56:39.724-07:00James, I also have a blog that describes my views ...James, I also have a blog that describes my views as a Mormon. I don't think it's quite as sensitive or thorough as your blog, but I was amazed just now as I was reading your arguments to see that I have made many of the same ones. I even used the analogy of breastfeeding, thinking that I was quite original! I've written twice about this. You might enjoy seeing a similar mind at work:<br /><br />http://mormonworldview.com/<br /><br />http://mormonworldview.com/2011/03/31/californias-prop-8-the-case-for-traditional-marriage/#comment-1163Lara Updikehttp://mormonworldview.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-5557328859896381222012-04-04T11:31:30.096-07:002012-04-04T11:31:30.096-07:00I guess we should be happy that American culture h...I guess we should be happy that American culture has finally recognized the value of marriage. Ten years ago it was an outdated, oppressive, patriarchal relic and free-thinking couples wanted nothing to do with it. Now same-sex couples can't possibly be expected to have monogamous relationships, acquire insurance benefits, buy houses, or raise children together without MARRIAGE.<br /><br />For what it's worth, I regard same-sex marriage as an inevitability. It won't be decided by states or even the federal government; it's going to come from the Supreme Court when it happens. And I totally agree with your statement that we don't really know how it will affect society - no matter how much its proponents insist otherwise, you can't change the fundamental nature of a societal institution without fundamentally changing society. But I also regard it as a far, far lesser evil than legalized abortion, which has been going on for decades. <br /><br />In the end, I refer to the Family Proclamation: " Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets." In other words, someday the debate will be over and everyone will KNOW.Jonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00916595282859161595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-20261045592043938432012-03-29T17:13:31.183-07:002012-03-29T17:13:31.183-07:00Thank you for writing all of this. I really enjoy ...Thank you for writing all of this. I really enjoy reading your posts.<br /><br />I'll still have to reread these posts a couple more times before I completely understand all you presented, but what I did understand - you wrote the thoughts and feelings I have trouble expressing. I especially appreciate your analogy about baby formula and breastfeeding. I agree with letting everyone have equal rights, but I cannot be moved to accept gay marriage as equal to eternal marriage.the little mrs.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15140183178272735317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-35719368354213838072012-03-22T20:19:33.995-07:002012-03-22T20:19:33.995-07:00No worries - I knew that you didn't intend it ...No worries - I knew that you didn't intend it that way. :) And for the record, I absolutely approve of father and mother raising children, just that I approve of same-sex couples doing so as well.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03382259353348066309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-73933350025327708652012-03-22T10:01:54.591-07:002012-03-22T10:01:54.591-07:00Sorry about the confusion--I definitely don't ...Sorry about the confusion--I definitely don't put abusive parenting and adoption/single parenting on the same level, of course. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt, Matthew. I agree to part of your point about ideal conditions in family (what we all must strive for, and what can make most family situations succeed). But I also agree with James that it is good to recognize that an ideal family organization exists: mother and father working hard to raise the children they brought into the world. If we say that that is passe or doesn't matter anymore, I think it will cause more harm than good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-32802970629494582112012-03-21T17:24:59.947-07:002012-03-21T17:24:59.947-07:00I do think you have done a good job of presenting ...I do think you have done a good job of presenting your views respectfully and broadening the context, so thank you for that. :)Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03382259353348066309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-76652777771132361222012-03-21T06:59:58.552-07:002012-03-21T06:59:58.552-07:00Matthew,
I think it's fine to disagree. And ...Matthew, <br /><br />I think it's fine to disagree. And actually, I will be happy if you turn out to be right!<br /><br />My primary hopes for this series are twofold: <br /><br />1) To show gay marriage proponents that intelligent people can be nervous about the possible impact of gay marriage for reasons other than homophobia. <br /><br />2) To help LDS people who are nervous about gay marriage that there is a larger context to the movement for it.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-50309218369289172562012-03-21T06:55:53.429-07:002012-03-21T06:55:53.429-07:00Bonnie,
I'd like to write later about the co...Bonnie, <br /><br />I'd like to write later about the concerns Prop 8 has raised on both sides about church-state interactions...but I don't want that issue to get too entangled with the question of whether gay marriage will ultimately be good for society. If there were no direct threat to the church, would there still be cause for concern? I think so, and would like to keep this discussion focused more on that.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-22521068077073839572012-03-21T06:50:44.999-07:002012-03-21T06:50:44.999-07:00This is something we can absolutely agree on. It&#...This is something we can absolutely agree on. It's great when biological parents are competent, but adoption is definitely a good way to grow up when they're not.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-15909059778086272082012-03-20T19:42:17.157-07:002012-03-20T19:42:17.157-07:00Here I am going to finally and simply say that we ...Here I am going to finally and simply say that we will not agree on this point at all. I fail to see any evidence whatsoever of negative effects of legalizing gay marriage and given the small percentage of people who are gay, I can't see it having any real social impact.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03382259353348066309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-84111497446574318222012-03-20T19:38:25.872-07:002012-03-20T19:38:25.872-07:00I just think that being a biological parent is sim...I just think that being a biological parent is simply no guarantee of good parenting. I would say that it is far better to have competent adoptive parents than incompetent biological ones.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03382259353348066309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-79679351092583976822012-03-20T14:46:51.282-07:002012-03-20T14:46:51.282-07:00It's also important to note the difference in ...It's also important to note the difference in the lands where nonprofit organizations are set up. The laws in Canada have very little effect on the church in Canada, because it is registered in the US. US laws, however, have a tremendous effect on the church. I think a primary (and rightful) concern of the church is its tax status. Should we refuse to solemnize marriages between gay individuals in our temples, or even excommunicate sexually active gay members, individual leaders are exposed to prosecution of hate crimes and the church's status is questioned. This is a significant question of religious liberty wherein faiths are being forced to promote a secular agenda and money and prosecution is the tool. Once upon a time the gay agenda was less inflammatory, as James responded to my earlier post. Unfortunately, now it is a strident agenda and requires a strong response from our leaders to protect what seem unrelated religious rights.Bonniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04191017963027895446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-48273520343052944952012-03-19T22:06:32.799-07:002012-03-19T22:06:32.799-07:00I don't mean to come across as flippant, but I...I don't mean to come across as flippant, but I do need to make one point again: how long were we burning fossil fuels before anyone noticed that we were changing the composition of the atmosphere in ways that are probably serious? <br /><br />My guess is that gay marriage develops like industrialization. People insist at first that it's pure progress with no downside and that critics are nut-job reactionaries. After an extended period of time, perhaps a few generations, people start to notice that there are subtle but significant unintended consequences. Then--like global warming--entrenched interests spend another generation resisting the evidence. Then we gradually build up the will to do something...but have changed society so much, we don't really know what to do.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-55722383640894492662012-03-19T21:55:01.087-07:002012-03-19T21:55:01.087-07:00I spoke to the adoption issue in a new comment abo...I spoke to the adoption issue in a new comment <a href="http://mormonmidrashim.blogspot.com/2012/03/part-four-in-which-i-finally-get-to-gay.html?showComment=1332218933955#c7108205163645039008" rel="nofollow">above</a>.<br /><br />Love, respect, empathy, and selflessness are certainly central to parenthood. And I agree that we should be impressed with people who make non-ideal situations like single parenthood work. But as I describe in the other comment, I think we do best in those situations when we acknowledge that they're not ideal. <br /><br />I am a better adoptive parent knowing what I've missed than I would be if I assumed there were no complications inherent in adoption.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-71082051636450390082012-03-19T21:48:53.955-07:002012-03-19T21:48:53.955-07:00Adoption is awesome. In a perfect world, it wouldn...Adoption is awesome. In a perfect world, it wouldn't be necessary, because all biological parents would be able to raise the children who have spent the nine months of growth prior to birth bonding with them--but we don't live in a perfect, millennial world...we live in this one. <br /><br />My older daughter is adopted (through a step-parent adoption), and I love her absolutely. But I also realize that my love doesn't negate the feelings she'll eventually have to work through about a biological father who hasn't bothered to see her since before she can remember. And I feel like I'm a better parent knowing that I've missed things (like getting her used to my voice while she's still in the womb) than I would be if I assumed adoption was absolutely ideal with no added complications. <br /><br />After her first marriage fell apart and before we met, dated, and got married, my wife was raising her daughter on her own. That was hard work and they would have made it even without me--but that situation also wasn't ideal. And I think my wife was a better single mother for knowing that her situation was less than ideal than she would have been if she'd assumed it was totally unproblematic. <br /><br />Contrast that with the case of some celebrity who adopts as a single mother and assumes everything will be fine and that it's judgmental of anyone to worry about what happens when you try to balance a demanding work schedule and child-rearing without a stable partner. That makes me nervous. <br /><br />So: I don't think there should be a stigma against adoption or single parenthood or anything, but I do think we start to make mistakes when we try to fight the stigma by insisting they are ideals. <br /><br />I once knew a woman who was single, struggling with depression issues, who had very little support network...and was planning on artificial insemination so she could have a baby before she ran out of time on her biological clock. <br /><br />What a bad idea! But it's hard in our culture to say it's a terrible idea, because then you're being judgmental. <br /><br />Sigh. <br /><br />My wife has close friends who couldn't have children and wanted to adopt. It took them several years of trying before a baby was placed with them--even with years of marriage, stability, and experience working with the foster parent program. <br /><br />Do we push couples like that further back in line to show equality to everyone who decides to adopt? I don't think that's necessarily wise.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-14313632723774531892012-03-19T18:17:31.325-07:002012-03-19T18:17:31.325-07:00And there hasn't been any unraveling of societ...And there hasn't been any unraveling of society here, funnily enough. :)Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03382259353348066309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-71411087191325162042012-03-19T18:16:14.608-07:002012-03-19T18:16:14.608-07:00Anonymous, I am a little shocked that you lumped i...Anonymous, I am a little shocked that you lumped in adoption and single parenting with abusive parenting. That being said, I am quite sure that you didn't intend to equate them, though.<br /><br />As someone who was adopted, I can honestly say that biology is not the primary bond that makes family family.<br /><br />Single parenting is a bloody hard job, and they deserve far more credit for what they do than they get. And, I really think that there is something to the village-raising-a-child idea that we have lost in our culture. <br /><br />A gay couple raising a child provides two parents, love and stability as much as any straight couple. In fact, not every heterosexual marriage will be the heterogenous either. Dads can be sporty, masculine, athletic, mechanical, and they can also be artistic, sensitive, emotional, and no good at doing any kind of "manly" things. Ditto for mothers - some mothers are kick boxers, others are knitters.<br /><br />I am just not convinced that there is an ideal group makeup as much as there are ideal conditions - love, respect, empathy, selflessness.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03382259353348066309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-42979556175568492772012-03-19T16:53:22.711-07:002012-03-19T16:53:22.711-07:00Thank you for this. It is helping me to codify my ...Thank you for this. It is helping me to codify my own thoughts on the matter. As a newly expectant mom, I feel keenly how important it is that I raise my baby together with my husband, her father. I'm excited to breastfeed, and to see how she'll look like us, and to teach her our family history and traditions. I sincerely love my gay friends, but at my core I believe that parenting should be the realm of a mother and father, working as hard as they can to be the best parents possible. Everything less than that, adoption (though it is of course necessary when a child's parents are unwilling or unable to raise their child), single parenthood, abusive parenting, or a child missing out on a mom or dad in a gay marriage, is just not the ideal. It gets harder and harder to say that out loud any more, but that's how I feel. I don't mean to act superior--I don't associate any personal virtue with this belief that I have. I believe that it is a God-given truth that exists outside of me, and I try to live my life according to that ideal. <br /><br />Anyway, thanks--Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-84977274364936676632012-03-19T11:16:41.171-07:002012-03-19T11:16:41.171-07:00As always, I'm glad I was introduced to your b...As always, I'm glad I was introduced to your blog, and I'm glad you're not afraid to tackle the hard questions and try to formulate some answers for people. I didn't read all of the comments, but I liked the series and everything you covered. <br /><br />Looking forward to your next post.Sarraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468399841447827078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-89287866199953259212012-03-19T07:46:21.397-07:002012-03-19T07:46:21.397-07:00I don't know for sure what's different abo...I don't know for sure what's different about Canada and California in terms of church legal concerns, but my guess would be that court involvement has something to do with it. <br /><br />Proposition 22 and Prop 8 have both been attempts to keep the American judicial system from enforcing gay marriage as a matter of constitutional equality. I've actually read a Master's thesis by a non-LDS writer who examined the relationship between what he called the "constitutional order" (the groups who controlled the government, courts, etc.) and three religious types: Native Americans, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses. His central thesis was that the people who interpret and enforce the constitution have been fairly accommodating of groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses whose differences (i.e. refusing to serve in armed forces) were largely a matter of individual conscience, but have been pretty tough on Native Americans and Mormons whenever there was a recognizable difference in land and social organization. Maybe that's all in the past...but maybe it's not. When Elder Oaks was BYU President, the justice department initiated a lawsuit over BYU's practice of wanting male and female students in different buildings. Even though Oaks found a way to make some concessions and settle out of court, I think the idea that the courts could try to crack down on something like that made LDS leaders really nervous. <br /><br />So yeah: Canada may have gay marriage laws that give church leaders less cause for alarm than CA court rulings have.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-29016338118189531642012-03-18T19:44:17.491-07:002012-03-18T19:44:17.491-07:00I very much enjoyed this four-part series, James. ...I very much enjoyed this four-part series, James. Thank you very much for addressing the issue of gay marriage, for recognizing the need for rights and overall decency for our LGBT brothers and sisters, and for doing so in a conscientious and loving matter. <br /><br />This is overly simplistic, but I feel the greatest issue is that no one can, or should, be legislated into morality. On the one hand, we theologically believe in the the immorality of sexual expression outside of marriage and for homosexual sexual encounters of any kind. On the other hand, many opponents to gay marriage have neglected to use common, human decency in their interactions and conversations with or concerning those who choose to live in and enjoy homosexual relations. My theological beliefs lead me to feel that both are immoral. <br /><br />You addressed how this argument is really coming to a head because of prejudice attitudes preventing rights for same-sex couples in the past. Since most people will concede that policies and prejudices barring rights for same-sex couples of the past were wrong, I wonder where we move from here. What will be the legislative history we hand to our children and how will it affect the societies they inhabit?<br /><br />I'll be honest, I really just find myself weary of the whole issue. It seems as if same-sex marriage _will_ be legalized in all 50 states eventually, probably sooner than later. So why not place energies into protecting our families and teaching morality on a familial and/or church level rather than concerning ourselves with legality? <br /><br />The argument I hear most frequently is that gay marriage legislation would result in loss of religious freedom. I have read a number of statements from the Brethren, from Elder Oaks in particular, addressing religious freedom as the reason for the Church's involvement with Prop 8. Obviously, I have no grounds on which to refute such arguments. I sustain and support the leaders of our church as prophets, seers, and revelators. But such a belief does not prevent questions or a desire to greater understand the whys and hows of such statements.<br /><br />It has been interesting residing in Canada this last year where gay marriage has been legal for a number of years now. I will not pretend to assume that the laws, culture, and attitudes of Canadians are identical to those in the US. However, Canada is probably as close as it comes in comparison so perhaps it's worth a consideration.<br /><br />In any case, during a conversation with a bishop here in Calgary, I was informed that when gay marriage legislation was passed in Canada, the Saints inquired of Church Headquarters as to how they should proceed. In short, they were counseled to just let it go. And so they did. The church and families, from what I have seen thus far, have been relatively unaffected by the legislation. <br /><br />Again, I'm not going to presume or pretend that it is an identical comparison. I find that while the USA boasts a heritage of free-thinking and freedom, religious freedom and concession for religious groups abound much more here than in the US. And so I wonder, is the greater acceptance of religious freedom because churches are less involved in matters of state? Or does the Canadian government have more respect for religious groups and religious freedom than its American counterpart, and therefore leave less desire for religious groups to get involved?Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02057320365645931085noreply@blogger.com