tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post8548979047017334145..comments2023-11-05T03:06:30.977-08:00Comments on Mormon Midrashim: Gender Follow-Up: Some Concrete Suggestions for Local ChangeJames Goldberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-589733944664372052013-01-13T08:35:09.810-08:002013-01-13T08:35:09.810-08:00Hmmmm. Typing on my nook is causing problems... ...Hmmmm. Typing on my nook is causing problems... *been* and *chickens*lchastonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16430871454454141171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-53960683911595383142013-01-13T08:26:31.147-08:002013-01-13T08:26:31.147-08:00Maybe your insight about communication is why I en...Maybe your insight about communication is why I enjoy your blog so much...I always say that the best way to sbvert discontent, misunderstanding, and contention is open and genuine communication. When we talk about the things that worry us or bother us, in a rational and humble way, we learn, we gain insights, and we can change. Thank you for this rational forum.lchastonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16430871454454141171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-57389927087500350542013-01-13T08:08:51.473-08:002013-01-13T08:08:51.473-08:00My experience has bee that doing it only once a mo...My experience has bee that doing it only once a month leads the young women to feel a little like dancing cickens, paraded in front of the RS for some strange entertainment value, instead of feeling valued and included. It needs to be more meaningful and consistent, in my mind, but I know that many wards are trying...lchastonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16430871454454141171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-11930954251663807112013-01-13T08:04:50.180-08:002013-01-13T08:04:50.180-08:00James, your willingness to focus on what a youth c...James, your willingness to focus on what a youth can become instead of what they are today is crucial...and not just in terms of youth. That is how the Savior sees us...not that he doesn't expect progress and hope for change...<br /><br />Thank you for the consistence of tone.lchastonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16430871454454141171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-70200071898856069032013-01-09T20:11:42.800-08:002013-01-09T20:11:42.800-08:00Thanks for the response, James. That's an awes...Thanks for the response, James. That's an awesome approach to both bedtime and to the subject of menstruation and maturation generally. Totally stealing from you. :)<br /><br />I think your final comment, though, hits on the head part of the frustration I feel sometimes. We don't begin talks about the priesthood with qualifiers ("Not everyone can live up to the responsibilities of the priesthood, and we recognize that. Still, to those who are able, home teaching is something we encourage.") :) I will always remember Sherri Dew's 2001 address "Are We Not All Mothers," in part because it was the POWER that she was speaking of, not the individuals. It didn't matter if you actually had a baby or a husband. What mattered is that you took hold of that divine power within you and let it bring you closer to God. <br /><br />We culturally flinch away from talking about Heavenly Mother because we already take enough flack about polytheism from some people, and we culturally flinch away from talking too much about that divine procreative power because we don't want to be pilloried by secular feminists and/or we don't want to hurt the feelings of women who aren't mothers. If we are honoring the POWER and not the person, though, I think that even the woman without children will feel included in that show of respect, just like the deacon doesn't feel slighted when he brings the sacrament to the bishop.<br /><br />Also, to Bri Guy, that is an AWESOME variation on the "salute the mother" tradition. Totally stealing that one, too (long story). :) In my previous ward, though, one bishopric counselor in particular made a joke of it, and it irritated my husband a lot. I think it's a great starting place, though, and I'm glad to hear your ward is doing it.<br /><br />Can I offer another idea, one that might illustrate where I'm coming from when it comes to showing respect for the power vs. the person? What if, for baby blessings, all the priesthood bearers who had been asked to participate assembled in the front and then waited for the mother to bring the child to them? Without singing the praises of the mother from the pulpit, it would be a symbolic acknowledgement that the priesthood bearers stand ready and willing to serve but lack the ability to do so without the gifts that come from that procreative power. That's what I mean by respect rituals. <br />It's not about thanking an individual for her contributions, it's recognizing the whole that these two halves of the power of God become. (See D&C 132:19-20 where the distinguishing characteristics of exaltation are that they have all things subject to them AND have a continuation of seeds forever.) <br /><br />(How's that for a concrete suggestion, James, since I totally forgot to mention one and that's what you were actually blogging about? Better late than never, right?) :)Hillaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07966370717526592703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-77863741942221200622013-01-08T15:06:45.863-08:002013-01-08T15:06:45.863-08:00I see #3 problematic in another way because the ch...I see #3 problematic in another way because the church culture actually perpetuates harmful stereo-types in order to justify the current set-up of men and women. How many times have you heard "women don't need the priesthood-men do," usually followed by explanations of how women already know how to serve and be selfless, etc. and that those "poor men" need the priesthood to get anywhere near the (often superficial) elevation of women? How uncomfortably close is this belief to the images we see of men being immature, thoughtless and self-involved in the media? The theory that men need priesthood to equal women actually agrees with that offensive portrayal of men. I certainly believe the priesthood helps men but what about non-member men? Are they doomed to selfish indolence because they don't have the priesthood? Why can't we just say "you're right, it isn't the same and we have no freaking clue why, so let's ask some thoughtful questions of our leaders and pray for further revelation."? In my perfect world... :)<br /><br />As a final note on change, I don't think there is one best way for all situations. I agree that most of the time it is appropriate for small and simple changes to be made as opposed to big events, but those also have a place. While the Lord usually speaks to us quietly and with great patience, there are also instances of angels appearing to the heard-hearted, water turning to blood, an ass speaking to its master and other very visible events. As individuals seeking change, I don't think there is one right or wrong way to go about it as long as we are sincere and not trying to do things out of selfishness or pride...and we'll make lots of awkward and weird mistakes along the way. That's the fun part :)<br />Lobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07921291768879322592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-31199569626913512672013-01-08T15:05:55.146-08:002013-01-08T15:05:55.146-08:00I think I finally have a moment to write something...I think I finally have a moment to write something though I will likely be repeatedly interrupted by an active baby so some of these thoughts aren't as nuanced as I'd like so I'm open to greater discussion.<br /><br /><br />Most people have said what I had thought in regards to #1. I think the Boy Scout thing is very American and that less pomp is good, but I still think the youth benefit from some kind of positive recognition-as long as there's not a stark difference in the amount of attention between not only genders but individuals. We won't get it perfect, but we can sure do better.<br /><br />#2 is one of my biggest concerns-not only for men not SEEING women in leadership positions, but rarely being LED by women once they're no longer teens (though teaching in primary is the one exception and I think we both agree that more men should be called to such positions.) There's a great post on this at FMH: <br />http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2013/01/the-mormon-guys-career-guide-to-mansplaining/<br />Basically it talks about the effects the church leadership structure has on working with women in authority outside the church (and from the article and comments this has also been a common complaint about new hires from BYU in the business world, though BYU is trying to change that.)<br /><br />I think women are also deprived of the kind of growth that comes from leading and being accountable to groups of adult men and women. When I was president of Divine Comedy, it was one of the most eye-opening experiences I've had as well as one of the best in terms of growth and feeling like I was able to benefit others in that kind of leadership position (and finding I was good at it.) I am now more understanding of those called to lead me and am better able to discuss my concerns with them as well as be more patient of their shortcomings since I had to lead with my own combo of strengths and weaknesses completely out in the open. While there are leadership opportunities in the church for women, any of their decisions can be overridden by a priesthood authority close to them. It's a very different experience to be making the final decisions-and I'm not saying it's a "better" place to be, just a unique one that I think many women would benefit from. It can be incredibly humbling and empowering at the same time. Almost all callings in the church are rotated/temporary so we can learn to serve in different capacities. While I agree that being in the position we might view as being the "one in charge" is not a BETTER position, it is still a necessary one that gives growth and benefits others. Why are there so few of those kinds of positions or opportunities for women? I know a lot of our leadership is tied into the priesthood, but is there somewhere in our theology where women can lead both adult genders with authority? <br />Lobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07921291768879322592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-24855310347304778432013-01-08T08:26:19.759-08:002013-01-08T08:26:19.759-08:00That's pretty much what I was getting at. We ...That's pretty much what I was getting at. We have divisions in the church in an attempt to better meet the needs of people who fit into said categories. We just have to find the balance in not forgetting that there can be very unique needs within those groups that are individual in nature.<br />While I'm sure it's beneficial in some ways to have 10-year old boys in the same class as 60-year old women, it may not meet their needs as much as RS and Sunday School/Primary. <br /><br />The crazy balance I referred to is one in which we don't go too far into either extreme of focusing so much on individuals that there's no order to anything because every case is supposedly radically different, vs. grouping everyone into certain categories and assuming that an individual's needs within that category are all the same. In reality it's a combination of both, and the church tries to implement that, though our corporate culture of the last few decades has perhaps hindered some of the focus on unique circumstances in trying to prescribe a common solution to large groups of people.Lobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07921291768879322592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-1046948527127625002013-01-08T05:40:35.749-08:002013-01-08T05:40:35.749-08:00"The bread things is very true."
I mea..."The bread things is very true." <br /><br />I meant "the bread thing is very cool"--but it came out bizarre and incoherent. Ah, well..James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-27991351523833609772013-01-08T05:25:59.795-08:002013-01-08T05:25:59.795-08:00The bread things is very true.
And your difficul...The bread things is very true. <br /><br />And your difficulty implementing a standard communication process is worth highlighting: often, our society seems to cast gender-based dissatisfaction as though it's the result of an active conspiracy to oppress. Typically, though, the problem is simply that any improvement takes work--and the work is often sort of mundane and unglamorous. Real progressive work, I think, is more often along the lines of trying to get teenagers to communicate than doing something like organizing a protest. James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-15045471529143210492013-01-07T11:10:00.718-08:002013-01-07T11:10:00.718-08:00In our ward, the YW and RS met together on Fast Su...In our ward, the YW and RS met together on Fast Sundays as a way to help YW feel more comfortable. It was really nice, but it was kind of hard to do it only once a month. There's nothing against doing that except tradition, so maybe some wards could give it a try! I think involving YW in visiting teaching would sometimes be a great idea, too. There's nothing official against that, either.Andrea Landakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14562563611657483918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-92037110842980014892013-01-07T09:56:38.506-08:002013-01-07T09:56:38.506-08:00This is only slightly related, but I lived in a wa...This is only slightly related, but I lived in a ward in Logan where whenever there was a baby blessing (and it happened frequently) after the blessing, the bishop invited the baby's mother to stand and be recognized, and then any of the baby's grandmothers and great-grandmothers that were present. It was a small gesture of appreciation that sometimes seemed a little corny, but which I think was a good step towards celebrating them in a more public way. And since baby blessings are usually on fast sunday, it seems like the moms and grandmas are frequently the first ones to get up and bear their testimonies, too.bbmarronehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07405401846717136696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-7876504037375468402013-01-06T21:48:01.283-08:002013-01-06T21:48:01.283-08:00Yes. Yes yes yes. There is so much collateral dama...Yes. Yes yes yes. There is so much collateral damage to this trend I can't even begin to begin.Bonniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04191017963027895446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-40592491154626433412013-01-06T20:17:23.007-08:002013-01-06T20:17:23.007-08:00My post was too long -- here's the rest:
Do y...My post was too long -- here's the rest:<br /><br />Do you know what I would love to see? I would love to see mothers and daughters attending BOTH the YW general broadcast and the RS general broadcast every year. I wish the YW and RS met together for opening exercises every week, like the priesthood members do. From the time a boy is a deacon, he sees the workings of the priesthood organization. Whether he pays attention or not is a different matter, but he sees assignments being made. He hears about the needs of the members of the ward as they are met through volunteerism and assignments there in opening exercises. By the time he's ready to become an elder, he has a sense of what priesthood meetings are about. AND, the young men get to go home teaching -- they get to see priesthood service in action, whether they accompany their fathers or some other man in the ward. <br /><br />For the young women, though, RS is this strange and separate place where their mothers go. It's for the old ladies. I wish the young women could see assignments being made in RS. I wish they could get a sense of the sisterhood that the adult women feel for each other and how that sisterhood expands beyond age and social differences. I wish the young women were asked, from the time they're 14, to go visiting teaching with their mothers, or with another sister in the ward. It would teach them about service, about compassion, and it would reduce the isolation and spiritual disconnect that the girls often feel, or that I believe that they feel. Maybe it would help them transition from the YW program (which sometimes is just too much about the YW, feeding an already natural self-absorption that exists for that age group) into Relief Society, where they need to be able and ready to let go of self-service and truly learn how to reach out to others.<br /><br />So, as often as I could, I took my daughters to the YW broadcasts, and invited them to attend the RS broadcasts with me. They both had awkward transitions into RS (as I did, 35 years ago). I think we could do more to make the transition more natural, and help connect the sisters and the young women in each ward more authentically.<br /><br />Anyway -- I love the way you think. Thank you for inviting so many other great thinkers to share here! lchastonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16430871454454141171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-29605323423203296202013-01-06T20:16:39.223-08:002013-01-06T20:16:39.223-08:00I love that you point out the difference between c...I love that you point out the difference between culture's vision of men and women, prestige of position in church service, and the gospel vision -- true, true, true!<br /><br />When my husband served in a bishopric, it was his job to organize sacrament meetings - music, talks, etc. As a bishopric, they made some small changes to the cultural habits of the area. They eliminated the label "youth speaker." The youth spoke, but it wasn't always first, and it wasn't always for just 5 minutes. Each speaker was given a specific topic and a specific length of time to speak. My husband worked with the youth to help them plan and carry out their talks according to the guidelines set. They never used the words "youth speaker" when announcing who would speak. Women often spoke last in sacrament meeting. There were no "missionary farewells" or "homecomings," although outgoing missionaries and returning missionaries were always asked to speak shortly before leaving or shortly after returning home, on a specific gospel topic assigned by the bishopric. They were, of course, welcome to use any personal experiences that were relevant to that subject. It helped diffuse the cultural habits of homecomings and farewells.<br /><br />As YW president at the time, I went to the bishop to see if there wasn't some way to engage the young women more in service in the ward, especially in regards to sacrament meeting. Our bishop asked the young women to be in charge of the bread for the sacrament. He asked them to make homemade bread -- he is a man who loves good food, and it was important to him that the bread for the sacrament was hearty and delicious. He always instructed the young men to break the bread into large pieces to provide sufficient mass to give the members time to ponder over what they were partaking of. For many years, the young women took turns preparing the bread. Because I knew that it was the teachers' quorum responsibility to make sure there was bread at each sacrament meeting, I tried to get the teachers' quorum president to coordinate with the young women in a "return and report" kind of communication to confirm who would be bringing bread each week, but we were never able to truly implement that practice. I was trying to get the YM and YW to communicate with each other regarding their assigned stewardships, in the hope that that habit of communication would carry over into their adult associations in serving in the church. <br /><br />Your point is extraordinarily well-taken -- if we want these less effective cultural habits to change, we need to work on changing them, one family, one youth program, one ward at a time.<br /><br />lchastonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16430871454454141171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-25311887233441994422013-01-06T15:18:13.556-08:002013-01-06T15:18:13.556-08:00Just watched this, and thought it pertinent:
ht...Just watched this, and thought it pertinent: <br />http://www.lds.org/pages/mormon-messages?lang=eng#daughters-of-god<br /><br />Aunt Sheila Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-76488552197373996122013-01-06T15:07:26.891-08:002013-01-06T15:07:26.891-08:00JR, the circumstance you describe is very unfortun...JR, the circumstance you describe is very unfortunate, but thankfully, is not reflective of the church as a whole. At least, I have never seen anything such as you described. I feel sorry for your daughter. <br /><br />"Boys will be boys" is a cultural matter, not a Gospel matter, and will have to be dealt with through cultural institutions, or secondarily in a Gospel framework as people learn and accept correct principles. If a crime was committed, you may want to call the police. Or maybe forgiveness is in order. May God bless you.jinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-91800521190825384952013-01-06T12:47:57.824-08:002013-01-06T12:47:57.824-08:00Obviously I did not make my point clear.
Let me k...Obviously I did not make my point clear. <br />Let me know how it feels when a member of your family is disrespected by someone in the church, they are outnumbered 3 to 1, called vulgar names, personal items taken away and broken, laughed at, then the attitude of "well, they were just having some fun" or " boys will be boys". JRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-70320245202429115812013-01-06T09:49:17.465-08:002013-01-06T09:49:17.465-08:00Again, I agree we need to focus on individuals.
...Again, I agree we need to focus on individuals. <br /><br />But I also agree that certain broad characteristics are helpful in guessing what an individual might need. <br /><br />If a woman has a baby, the Relief Society responds to her as an individual, but within the well-known subset of common needs of women who have just had babies. Group identities, maybe, are a shortcut to start the individual tailoring process. <br /><br />Jesus might not need that shortcut since he already knows everything, but when I approach someone I am consciously or unconsciously likely to estimate their needs making reference to things like age, gender, etc. James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-88142717110006602342013-01-06T09:43:58.908-08:002013-01-06T09:43:58.908-08:00JR:
You complain that the General Authorities fo...JR: <br /><br />You complain that the General Authorities focus too much on keeping people in line and not enough on giving people flexibility in their own spheres. <br /><br />Then you go on to complain that the people in your ward are out of line and call the local leaders idiots. <br /><br />Hmm.<br /><br />I don't know what to tell you.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-27882257847331826412013-01-06T09:35:15.637-08:002013-01-06T09:35:15.637-08:00I'm glad you brought up menstruation--I've...I'm glad you brought up menstruation--I've actually been thinking about it lately because I have a daughter for whom it may be just a few years away and have heard several stories about how overwhelming its onset can be. <br /><br />Now, my daughter and I have made a deal: any night she remembers to ask for a story about Jesus, I'll tell her one when I tuck her in, even if it's already late. Given that it delays bedtime, she remembers basically 100% of the time. <br /><br />A while ago, I decided to tell the story of Jairus's daughter and mentioned that it was a very special time in the daughter's life--she'd just had her first period and was therefore changing from a girl into a young woman. Which made it so much more sad for her family when she got so sick and seemed like she was going to die without being able to finish growing up. <br /><br />Even though my wife's told our daughter about periods before, my daughter still asked about it like she had no idea what it was. So we talked about what menstruation is and why it's so important. And she thought it was pretty cool. If we find other opportunities to talk about it positively, I'm hoping she sees it as a valuable and important thing when it comes rather than as something foreign and weird. <br /><br />Since we don't live in a culture of arranged marriage and therefore have high rates of lifetime singlehood, talking about having children as a key sacred power of womanhood is complicated and raises concerns for some. But I think you're right that it is cool that in our community, we value birth and motherhood. And it might be cool if we had more traditions related to those somehow: to menstruation and pregnancy and breastfeeding and even menopause as a time of transition from the more immediate motherhood stage of life into a broader matriarchal stage. James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-56771008578489364942013-01-06T06:25:46.296-08:002013-01-06T06:25:46.296-08:00It is interesting how interconnected and complicat...It is interesting how interconnected and complicated things are. <br /><br />I mean, some people have mentioned feeling slighted by the Eagle Courts of Honor. But I'd imagine many can relate to your sense that in many (esp. the elaborate ones), the mothers are the ones the ritual is for maybe more than the sons. <br /><br />I wonder--and this is just a crazy theory--whether out of control Eagle ceremonies are related to the "humor" about men I mentioned in the post and Bonnie highlighted in her comments. If we have a growing cultural expectation that men will be losers who never take off, maybe some mothers need an elevated ritual level of reassurance that their sons are really achieving something. <br /><br />And, like you say, if a few mothers feel the need for more pomp, others often feel some obligation simply to follow that new norm. James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-8661842848612259192013-01-06T06:18:47.863-08:002013-01-06T06:18:47.863-08:00Hm.
I think the frame of teaching someone "n...Hm.<br /><br />I think the frame of teaching someone "not to act like x" is problematic, because it suggests you're seeing the person as x. And they can feel that. <br /><br />What we're encouraged to do is teach people to act like the best possible version of who they are and can be. Which can be tough with the handful of youth who are obviously trying to look too cool for anything a teacher might say. But I've seen the man one too-cool-for-Sunday-school guy from my ward growing up became. And I really admire his faith and dedication and vision now. <br /><br />So for both young men and young women, I think we need to strive to teach them to open up the Godliness at their core. Like Bonnie said, help them see how they're connected to the things of eternity. And then maybe some of the petty stuff will lose its sting. James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-11615396507542359732013-01-06T06:11:33.752-08:002013-01-06T06:11:33.752-08:00Hearing stories like yours makes me wish we had a ...Hearing stories like yours makes me wish we had a richer body of fiction with detailed settings from different countries and eras in church history. I think being able to see the different ways things have operated would give us a broader sense of what's possible within the framework of the restoration. James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-21786350636332720272013-01-06T06:06:30.341-08:002013-01-06T06:06:30.341-08:00Bonnie: Re the captcha...probably, but I'm not...Bonnie: Re the captcha...probably, but I'm not that smart...I just took the default settings...<br /><br />Re #3: The sobering thing to me about the examples you give with men is the direction--damaging cultural stereotypes about men seem to be getting worse, not better. The church's call to responsibility and dignity is an increasingly important alternative voice to the growing cultural casting of men as slackers and babies in big bodies. <br /><br /><br /><br />James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.com