tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post6875199067086168386..comments2023-11-05T03:06:30.977-08:00Comments on Mormon Midrashim: The Priesthood, Cooperative Culture, and Why Mormon Women Don't Need Liberals to Save Them from MeJames Goldberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-16927150482322167032012-11-08T16:48:12.497-08:002012-11-08T16:48:12.497-08:00I wasn't meaning that as a harsh criticism of ...I wasn't meaning that as a harsh criticism of BY, but simply to illustrate that the Relief Society can, at any time, be dissolved by the priesthood for any reason without input from the RS. While I think it's highly unlikely, it still remains possible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-67223997099586005462012-10-30T07:51:55.158-07:002012-10-30T07:51:55.158-07:00Brigham Young was working on limited experience wi...Brigham Young was working on limited experience with some intense challenges. He did the best he could, but I think it's pretty low of us today to judge him by our current standards or judge the modern church by his individual policies.<br /><br />Can we cut the guy some slack for having managed a mass migration in the wake of events that must have been extremely hard on him and his community? James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-60866320185639151972012-10-30T07:18:04.720-07:002012-10-30T07:18:04.720-07:00Well, except that the RS can actually be dissolved...Well, except that the RS can actually be dissolved or ignored at any time by the priesthood like Brigham Young did for many years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-10870380498164036372012-10-10T06:38:30.738-07:002012-10-10T06:38:30.738-07:00I've never equated priesthood with motherhood....I've never equated priesthood with motherhood. Motherhood and Fatherhood are the equals; Priesthood and Relief Society are the other equals, that is, service organizations that include both married and single persons. The Family: A Proclamation to the World teaches truths about fatherhood and motherhood with accompanying responsibilities. The recent book Daughters in my Kingdom covers the relationship between priesthood and Relief Society quite well. And finally, any woman who has been endowed in the temple would do well to remember the final lines in the ceremony at the veil when trying to understand women and the priesthood. I really appreciated this post and all the interesting comments. Rozy Lasshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06019413665136390175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-14627289208277317802012-10-01T06:29:21.432-07:002012-10-01T06:29:21.432-07:00Well said. Thanks for giving me words for some of...Well said. Thanks for giving me words for some of the thoughts I've been chasing around in my head.Tracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09689552476571068108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-8341279130504185462012-09-10T15:31:01.706-07:002012-09-10T15:31:01.706-07:00Just a question on this thread as I've been re...Just a question on this thread as I've been revisiting this post and thinking through it while watching my first baby play on the floor.<br /><br />Why are women not required to pass any kind of worthiness test or even have worthiness as a deciding factor in giving birth? And if motherhood=priesthood does that mean fatherhood is not important without the priesthood and won't bless lives the same way motherhood does?<br /><br />It's just interesting because while I absolutely agree that society at large is uncomfortable with feminine power, femininity, and procreation,(I actually think this is evidenced by the way extreme conservatives try to regulate/control it and extreme liberals try to ignore or downplay it), why does that power have nothing to do with a person's worthiness but the priesthood has everything to do with it? In the church structure, even as a single man the priesthood gives a man status-and I don't mean that in a worldly way. I mean that they are recognized as needed and have an important place ordained by God to serve in the group. Single women? Childless women? What's their place if their divine equivalent is motherhood? The church is actually losing a lot of membership among younger single women, and I think this may be a big part of it. There's not a place for them the way there is for a man with the priesthood-even if he's single. <br /><br />At the same time I am so grateful for the spiritual insights about birth and motherhood that the Gospel provides. I think as a church even we've lost some of it. Did you know that a midwife used to be called for life and set apart...much like a patriarch? She didn't even have to be married or have kids herself. I wish there were more of these kinds of callings celebrating the female divine. I treasured learning about the heritage of my foremothers in the church while I was pregnant, and loved the sacredness and divinity I found about pregnancy and birth in the scriptures. <br /><br />I think it also should be noted that I had a wanted pregnancy. If someone was raped, it seems more than a little insensitive to tell them how divine their experience is and how great it is to be a mother when they weren't ready or wanting it. In fact, too often throughout history many women have NOT had a choice if they wanted to bring life into the world or not. It was forced upon them or it was the only reason their husbands would keep them around which makes it difficult for me to align motherhood with the priesthood which can never be forced upon anyone. I mean you'll never find a man crying in a corner saying he said "no" to being an Elder and serving a mission, but he was tied down and couldn't remove himself from those hands on his head and then they tied him up and threw him on a plane. I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative, but I think it is so important to understand the implications of equating motherhood to priesthood and how painful that can be for those who didn't have wanted pregnancies or who DO want to be pregnant and can't be and wonder at their worthiness. I am so blessed that I am in a situation where I wanted my child and had support from my husband. Because of this I was able to appreciate the sanctity of what was happening.<br /> Lobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07921291768879322592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-18482471688447606652012-08-27T08:50:45.766-07:002012-08-27T08:50:45.766-07:00Yes, thanks so much for your comment! I loved Jame...Yes, thanks so much for your comment! I loved James' article and I love this comment of yours - they exactly sum up my feelings! (And I have often laughed at that list of past callings thing too. No one ever includes "nursery worker" on that list.)Rachel C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04090052574069314396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-76778385102829056052012-08-24T13:20:50.154-07:002012-08-24T13:20:50.154-07:00I think the point you bring up that "women &#...I think the point you bring up that "women 'love it' because they have no other choice" is a very interesting topic. <br /><br />I am an active LDS married women and while I grew up I seriously explored many other religions and realized that in some cultures women have more of a public presence in religious meetings and that in others women had less of a presence. From studying older accounts of women in the beginnings of the LDS church, I have also come to realize that women used to use/hold the Priesthood in some instances. <br /><br />I'd be lying if I said I hadn't wondered at times why the LDS church is currently set up the way that it is, but ultimately I would say that I love it. And I suppose, in a way you're right. I love it because if I believe that the LDS church is the true church, that it has the ordinances I need for salvation, and that it is led by God who speaks through His prophets (who would not led us astray), then yes, I realize that there is no other choice. In essence, I am giving up something I may want in order to follow what I believe is correct and do what I see as right. <br /><br />But I think it's worth exploring that just because there may be "no other choice" that doesn't mean that I only love the circumstance because it IS the only choice. I love it because although it may be hard, I believe it is the right choice for now and I want to follow what I perceive as right. And I believe that this choice is right because I believe that God speaks through prophets and leads the LDS church. Although I may not understand my Heavenly Father, I trust and love Him as I know He loves me. But literally, His thoughts are not my thoughts, because I don't have the perspective He does. <br /><br />There is a quote from Boyd K. Packer. He said, "We are not obedient because we are blind; we are obedient because we can see." <br /><br />I may not have the perspective my Heavenly Father does, but I can see that He wants what is best for me. Sure I don't understand fully why this is best for me at the time, but I'm willing to trust Him because I see that He wants what is best for me. <br /><br />Not too many years ago when my parents would give me advice on topics, I thought they were crazy and I did what I wanted to do instead. With the passing of a few years though I look back on those events and realize that the perspective my parents had really did give them an advantage. I made bad choices in some instances because I didn't trust in their perspective. I certainly didn't understand my parents at the time, but I understand them now. I think that it will be the same at some point in eternity: some day in eternity I will understand the seemingly odd actions of my Heavenly Father a lot better but for now I believe I need to gain more experience with the opportunities I am given. <br /><br />I also believe that limitations help us create beauty. Art definitely testifies to that. Cultures have developed their own ways of expression because of the limitations they have- they have certain materials/confines and become experts at working with those materials/confines. I have limitations, so do men who hold the Priesthood, but that allows us to form different and beautiful ways of expressing ourselves. <br /><br />Thanks for sparking my thoughts!Anna Silverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12022739419063016784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-56613729259585729762012-08-24T12:31:00.816-07:002012-08-24T12:31:00.816-07:00"For some reason, God doesn't allow us to..."For some reason, God doesn't allow us to attain salvation on our own. We have to be bound to someone else. But what a better way of helping us learn profound humility, unselfishness--and cooperation--than that?"<br /><br />I think this is one of my favorite things that I've read during this conversation. Physically and religiously speaking, we can't attain the best things by ourselves. We have to work together- learn to give certain things up to gain things of more worth. Thanks for sharing! Anna Silverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12022739419063016784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-44821516001132299852012-07-26T20:59:34.841-07:002012-07-26T20:59:34.841-07:00Wow. Very thoughtful and articulate comment.Wow. Very thoughtful and articulate comment.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-68216015071468806452012-07-26T12:11:28.178-07:002012-07-26T12:11:28.178-07:00Great article, James! If I can add my own two cen...Great article, James! If I can add my own two cents, I think you and Mahonri are two of the best feminists I've ever met - at least according to my definition of feminism. :) <br /><br />And that's the trick - defining feminism. I think of modern feminism as male-oriented in that its goal is to make women have all the things men do. I consider myself a female-oriented feminist in that I want to celebrate, protect, and empower that which is uniquely feminine.<br /><br />That uniquely feminine thing is the bearing and nursing/nurturing of children. Society at large does not highly value that feminine ability/power (arguably because of its chauvinistic roots - which means there is a place for some male-oriented feminism). In fact, we women have had to fight against a male-oriented society for the right to exercise that power to nurse our children in public. <br /><br />Before people break out the pitchforks, I'd also like to point out that, since the uniquely feminine power is NOT washing dishes or folding laundry or changing diapers, the chores historically thought of as "women's work" are actually as gender-neutral as getting an education or earning money or giving sermons in church.<br /><br />Society at large is uncomfortable with women being feminine - witness how the profound, life-altering, and powerful act of giving birth is consistently made fun of in pop culture. I think Mormon women are generally more comfortable with their uniquely-feminine power and that's probably part of why that 90% is so high. Many of us don't see ourselves as needing the priesthood - the gospel teaches us that we have a divine power that is undeniably our own. <br /><br />In fact, women can exercise their power to bring forth life without the priesthood, but the priesthood would be useless without families to serve, since families are the basic unit of the church and society. I'd even go so far as to say that the Priesthood and the procreative powers are both two halves of the whole power of God. In other words, the men who hold the Priesthood can exercise their power ONLY if women exercise theirs. <br /><br />Ironically enough, the inverse is not true. During periods of apostasy when the priesthood was taken from the Earth, the great plan of happiness continued to move forward because women still exercised their divine power to bring forth life. <br /><br />So if you're approaching the cooperative and complementary divine half-powers from a competitive point of view (which, as you so clearly and eloquently pointed out, DOESN'T WORK), the feminine power is arguably the greater. But chavinistic society doesn't see it that way, which leaves the male-oriented feminists scratching their heads at us 90%.Hillaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07966370717526592703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-22479250567093824282012-06-09T21:34:55.086-07:002012-06-09T21:34:55.086-07:00I am glad to hear the piece is serving as a worthw...I am glad to hear the piece is serving as a worthwhile conversation reference point. Honestly, that's about the highest praise I can ask for--people are having conversations and feel my work contributes. <br /><br />Thanks for letting me know.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-72399939430982899682012-06-09T16:30:59.930-07:002012-06-09T16:30:59.930-07:00I was sent this link by someone participating in a...I was sent this link by someone participating in a discussion about (once again) women and the priesthood. Well-written and well-reasoned, as usual. I have been arguing for a cooperative view for a long time without having a vocabulary or a worldview comparison to flesh it out. Nice. Thanks.Bonniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04191017963027895446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-8419668532652099932012-05-17T10:09:34.336-07:002012-05-17T10:09:34.336-07:00Well, we're on the wrong side of history for a...Well, we're on the wrong side of history for as long as a Sally Denton view of history is dominant. <br /><br />I have a feeling that someday, people will get their ideal society where gender is just a myth and the only thing not tolerated is intolerance and all that--and the society will crash hard, because it turns out it wasn't stable. <br /><br />If the world economy crashed tomorrow, I think history would quickly be on our side again. Latter-day Saints can build communities and care for each other (and as many of our neighbors as we can) under harsher conditions than our liberal critics could possibly weather. <br /><br />So you take your right side of history. But I'm ready to keep humanity alive when your noble historical progress falls apart.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-48609619127906928812012-05-16T21:27:23.220-07:002012-05-16T21:27:23.220-07:00What happens if there are no men around, the women...What happens if there are no men around, the women can't bless? Sorry you are in my eyes still an business organization that holds women below men? If you need to py to get into your heaven then it is an exclusive place. You are a cult and not a religion. It is easy to read thru this for what it is...manipulation and preying on the weak. No black men until 1978? no same sex marriage? You are on the wrong side of history.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-2623736114462376982012-03-19T11:13:50.183-07:002012-03-19T11:13:50.183-07:00Well...
I took issue with Sally Denton's arti...Well...<br /><br />I took issue with Sally Denton's article because it projected an outside frame of reference drawn from a competitive culture onto an institution that operates within the cooperative culture of the church. <br /><br />But please don't say "Mormon feminist" is a contradiction in terms. <br /><br />I think Mormon women should--and typically do--have their own brand of feminism. In many cases, their experience with the gospel helps them see things the cultures of their communities and workplaces could work on. <br /><br />In many cases, there's a real need for men and women who can see ways in which we can improve the situation of women within our own religious community. We are not perfect, and I think the scriptures say pretty clearly it's a big mistake to think we are. <br /><br />I'm all for Mormons paying attention to women's issues. I just think we need our own way to talk about them--not Sally Denton's way of talking down to us about them.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-70563884668125577652012-03-19T11:06:43.061-07:002012-03-19T11:06:43.061-07:00Bill,
Remember how doctrine and covenants teache...Bill, <br /><br />Remember how doctrine and covenants teaches you to show people love "lest they esteem thee to be an enemy"? <br /><br />The confrontational tone of your comment is not in harmony with that teaching. <br /><br />Be nice. I know Anne: she's a really good person who does a lot of good in the church and in her community. If she struggles with the way we handle priesthood, what she needs is positive examples of how the system can work well, not people throwing down a gauntlet and telling her she should shape up or ship out. <br /><br />I don't know you, but I'd imagine that you are a good person. Please, go learn what it means to follow the counsel to gently persuade. It doesn't help God if you respond to people's struggles with anger. <br /><br />What's the use of the priesthood if we're not speaking with the gentle power of the Holy Ghost?James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-44576868350197956542012-03-19T10:10:21.344-07:002012-03-19T10:10:21.344-07:00Bingo. There is nothing that prevents you blessing...Bingo. There is nothing that prevents you blessing your loved ones through prayer and supplication. But Mormon "feminists" - a contradiction in terms - arent really interested in BLESSINGS but rather the perception of POWER they're being denied. <br /><br />Priesthood is primarily service. I cannot place my hands on my own head and give myself a blessing, not without making mock. It's for us to bless others.Bill Polhemushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02550686148927068051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-20176781320732771892012-03-19T10:05:03.328-07:002012-03-19T10:05:03.328-07:00I guess mythology is more comforting to some than ...I guess mythology is more comforting to some than truth.<br /><br />I never understand why people who feel as you do don't just go and start your own "flavor" of the church. Nothing prevents it. Wouldn't you be much more content throwing off the rude shackles of male authoritarianism, and "restoring" this pretended "female priesthood?"<br /><br />The way you are now, you're miserable and folks around you, uncomfortable. <br /><br />Unless that's really what you want.Bill Polhemushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02550686148927068051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-89140128969904489952012-02-17T08:54:48.321-08:002012-02-17T08:54:48.321-08:00Agreeing to disagree is great--though actually, I&...Agreeing to disagree is great--though actually, I'd kind of like to read your extended argument on this if you do get around to writing it up. Let me know if you do. My main issue with Sally Denton's piece was the vast stereotyping: I'm genuinely curious about different ways we could potentially improve gender relationships, and would enjoy your thinking on that. <br /><br />I hope your thinking deals not only with opening opportunities, though, but also with providing new motivators for both gender to engage more fully in thankless work that is nonetheless essential. <br /><br />I mean, I think America needs national discussions on housework as well as about glass ceilings. And while my ward and quorum are pretty good at reminding men to be involved in things like housework, I think even in the church we could do more to help men and women work together better in little everyday things and not just big, headline-material things.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-8676062775755690512012-02-16T18:14:43.475-08:002012-02-16T18:14:43.475-08:00"But if you want us to get callings according..."But if you want us to get callings according to personality, aptitude, and interest, there's a lot more than gender roles standing in the way."<br /><br />Well, the way I see it, it isn't about *getting* the callings as much as it is about *not* getting them. <br /><br />Anyway, we can probably agree to disagree on this. :DMatthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03382259353348066309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-54094268136314745652012-02-15T08:16:52.074-08:002012-02-15T08:16:52.074-08:00Lobbie,
Yes. I definitely agree that there needs...Lobbie, <br /><br />Yes. I definitely agree that there needs to be room to talk about things and share ideas. In order for that to happen, I think it's important to be starting at a shared set of cultural values. One problem I see with editorials like the Sally Denton's is that denouncing Mormon culture based on an outside set of assumptions as oppressive toward women actually makes it harder for us to talk to each other about how to make things work a little better. <br /><br />I guess part of my message to Sally Denton would be to let Mormon women do a little more of the negotiation on their own. Your bishopric probably appreciates people like you who can help them see what they can do better without making them feel misunderstood and attacked in the process.<br /><br />So keep seeking that greater truth and sharing your insights in love, humility, and patience. And I hope most members are able to distinguish between your voice and those of people who just want to talk down to the church.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-67694772847667813972012-02-15T06:15:53.911-08:002012-02-15T06:15:53.911-08:00James-
I agree that the church is constantly tryin...James-<br />I agree that the church is constantly trying to figure out what's best and has changed a lot over the last century in terms of organization. It continues to do so, and I do love that about it, and trust that the leadership is of course trying to do what's best with what we know. The problem I have, however, is in constantly being told that if I have a problem with it, even if it's small, that there's clearly something wrong with ME. As if my own experiences are somehow invalid because they don't fit the 90% of other respondents in a survey quoted at general conference...therefore I must be close to apostasy instead of just being someone who has concerns and has actually gone through great pains trying to understand my position as a woman instead of letting it be glossed over and told TO me. I believe it's important to understand things myself and when I see or experience discrepancies, I want to be able to discuss them without feeling judged. Otherwise, it puts me in a position of feeling like I'm not really a "good" Mormon and adds to some of the already painful feelings I'm trying to sometimes work out. It can be especially painful when it's men telling me how happy I am/must be with a position they will never experience. I would not presume to assume that for them (but nor would I assume they are miserable.)<br />I've just noticed that it's difficult to bring up gender issues within the church without people thinking you're pushing either an oppressive-conservative agenda or a progressive-takeover agenda. I was terribly nervous to talk to my bishopric to tell them that I was uncomfortable with the fact that the only female speakers in sacrament meeting for the last 4 months were an occasional youth speaker, and that mother's and father's day and "priesthood day" had not a single female talk. They didn't do it intentionally of course, but the fact that it didn't even register as a problem until I brought it up does say that there is a need to vocalize when there are spiritual needs not being met (and since I was in the nursery at the time, I had a great need to hear spiritual experiences from other women and not only men talking about women.)<br /><br />So really all I want is a chance to feel like I can have this discussion about potential or actual problems with gender roles without being dismissed, having my feelings ignored, or assumed that I must not be a "good" Mormon for not being completely happy. I am often happy, but I grew up in this religion that made me always question and seek greater truth, so I just have this habit of wanting to always do that even if it makes things uncomfortable. :)Lobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07921291768879322592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-34704491891810422202012-02-13T18:10:09.858-08:002012-02-13T18:10:09.858-08:00"...totally disregarding personality, aptitud..."...totally disregarding personality, aptitude, and interest."<br /><br />I am a teacher by profession. I love the talking and sharing insights part, and I'm terrible at the organization part. <br /><br />I'm the Elders' Quorum secretary at church. It's against my personality, aptitude, and interest. But according to the Bishop and Elders' Quorum President, it's what the Lord wants from me and I'll grow. <br /><br />So by all means: write up the thesis. But if you want us to get callings according to personality, aptitude, and interest, there's a lot more than gender roles standing in the way. ;) <br /><br />P.S. I'm definitely for dads getting to spend more time with kids, by the way. I get two full weekdays at home right now and it's awesome.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-59379346295199022712012-02-13T16:38:04.133-08:002012-02-13T16:38:04.133-08:00It isn't about abuse of authority in particula...It isn't about abuse of authority in particular - that is a real problem everywhere. It is more about the automatic assignment of "gender roles" based on 2 chromosomes and totally disregarding personality, aptitude, and interest.<br /><br />I also don't see the exclusion of men being a good thing either - in fact I see the whole division mentality as being the exact antithesis of Zion. Just like splitting people up in groups based on wealth, politics, skin color, sexual identity, or any other way we have of delineating the Other. We are commanded to be one - one heart and one mind, one like Christ and God are one. Dividing ourselves up defeats this commandment.<br /><br />I believe that demanding that all women stay home because some women have babies is just as wrong as demanding that all women work because some women don't want babies. There is no universal experience, therefore any universal expectation like that is of necessity unjust.<br /><br />In my ideal world, there would be divisions of labor mutually agreed upon by those involved that had nothing whatever to do with gender stereotypes. SAHDs would be just as valued as SAHMs (yes, the irony, I know).<br /><br />As far as retaining men, I think that a deeper conversion to the gospel is a far better way of approaching it than reinforcing gender roles, and locking men into unwanted roles, as much as women are.<br /><br />I really should sit down and write a proper thesis on my position - apologies for the disconnected nature of my argument. To sum up, I support the right to choose roles that fit, and the right to be chosen for roles that fit, regardless of superficial constraints. <br /><br />Anyway, also apologies if I came across as being overly strident in my comment - I feel strongly about this topic, and sometimes that doesn't translate well into print.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03382259353348066309noreply@blogger.com