tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post429810631198028256..comments2023-11-05T03:06:30.977-08:00Comments on Mormon Midrashim: Some thoughts on gender and the churchJames Goldberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-54813722643826884562013-02-22T06:24:03.182-08:002013-02-22T06:24:03.182-08:00Do you know why Male Primary Teachers are not Inte...Do you know why <a href="http://www.thefutureteacherfoundation.com/male-primary-teachers" rel="nofollow">Male Primary Teachers</a> are not Interested to do Job in Primary School? I Think Low Amount of Salary. Are you agree with me? <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07497044027863630767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-2675196278226005832013-02-04T09:43:02.276-08:002013-02-04T09:43:02.276-08:00I know I'm late coming into this discussion, b...I know I'm late coming into this discussion, but I felt like sharing my experiences and ideas about these issues. I love the idea of just talking about differences rather than inequality. Because even in this world with equal rights for genders, cultures, etc., we all experience the world differently because of those factors. My experience in the church and world is fundamentally different from my brothers' though we grew up in the same household and have extremely similar lives.<br /><br />Growing up in Utah with a 95%+ LDS high school, I felt like I had an altogether positive experience in the church. There are things that I would like to see improvement on, but I felt like I had many positive relationships with adult men in my ward. I also felt that, in general, my relationships with young men in my ward were positive. I never experienced comments similar to those above. However, I have witnessed comments of other nature that disappointed me. Those comments have to do with the intra-gender relationships of men in the ward. For some reason, perhaps the socioeconomic situation of my ward, there was a huge emphasis on what men wore to church. When I was about 14, the young men in my Sunday School class essentially mocked my teacher who was wearing a colored shirt instead of a white one. I was really disappointed because the only thing that brother was expected to do that day was teach Sunday School. He wasn't officiating any Priesthood ordinances. But even if he was, would the color of his shirt have made a significant difference? Around the same time, our YM President made it very clear that he expected every young man to be dressed in a suit every Sunday. While the vast majority of our ward had the means to do this, some did not. And at an age where young men are growing so quickly, I almost think it's unreasonable to purchase a suit. It set an expectation that, though I didn't witness it, likely lead to some disillusionment for some young men.<br /><br />On another note, one of my greatest disappointments in my education as a young woman was lack of knowledge about the Priesthood. The young men are taught from an early age about keys and procedures and having a respect for the Priesthood. Why? Because they are given the Priesthood and begin using at a very early age. Unfortunately, I missed out on that. I got that education to a degree, but not nearly as much of it as I would've liked to.<br /><br />Another thing that I would like to see is mixed gender leadership for mixed gender organizations. Sunday School and Primary are mixed gender, so why not the presidencies? I think we'd be able to have a much more balanced and effective experience if we started seeing more this.<br /><br />As far as the structure of young adult lives for men and women, it's tough. I'm considering missionary service and marriage and it's difficult to navigate all the counsel that has been given and the expectations of family and leadership. However, I hope for one thing to come of the age change. I hope that young men feel less pressured to go at a specific time. I hope that they are given more room for reflection to see if this time is right for them to go or if they need another year at college. There should be less expectation on men to serve as soon as they fit the requirement, and more expectation to serve a mission in general. <br /><br />As a young single adult at BYU, I actually feel pretty good about the things we've been discussing. I have female gospel doctrine teachers. I have female Sunday School and Missionary leadership. I feel like a lot of the problems that exist in family wards that have been discussed, aren't nearly as much of a problem for my ward. This gives me hope. I believe that as time goes on, these changes will take place because my peers will begin taking leadership positions in wards all over the place. It will be a slow process, but I believe that it's happening as we speak--and it's wonderful.Trishahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18293810582885227832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-24095248993213845442012-12-27T22:19:11.444-08:002012-12-27T22:19:11.444-08:00Mahonri,
I feel like you are purposely misreading...Mahonri,<br /><br />I feel like you are purposely misreading James's point here. I understand that you believe the two of you have completely different ideas about gender, but you may find that you agree on a lot of things. If you read carefully, you will notice that he isn't addressing larger issues on purpose. And he certainly didn't say Anne was defensive (just because he mentioned defensiveness in his response to her). I found that he was making a more general statement about how people respond to controversies rather than a pointed remark to Anne. In fact, I see that he is merely clarifying.<br /><br />The purpose, as I see it, is to discuss people's experiences with gender differences in the church. I can see that has happened throughout the fifty-five comments listed here. I think it's good we're talking about curriculum and weird activities like designing a temple dress. I also think it's good we're saying we need more men in Primary and that the scout rule of no one-to-one contact is something to consider. <br /><br />But, again, the point of this post, as I see it, is not to talk about inequality (as he points out upfront) but quality. How can we make sure people have good experiences as men and women and girls and boys and teenagers in the church? I think it helps us redirect responsibility to each of us. We are the ones responsible for how we treat those around us. And if we want our daughters to feel empowered in church, then we need to step up and make that difference.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-47678208881945244232012-12-27T12:28:58.316-08:002012-12-27T12:28:58.316-08:00Thank you for the post. I appreciate that you focu...Thank you for the post. I appreciate that you focus on things that really are more local in nature. I think we would do a lot more good to look at our own local church experiences, speak with local leaders, and try to come up with local solutions, which is what I think you are encouraging here. Holding the church up to a worldly standard of political-correctness is the wrong way. Like others have said, look where there is dissatisfaction, look at where there are hurt feelings, watch for disrespect, and try to address things locally. I think many of the people reading and commenting on this post are probably in presidencies, ward councils, or at least live down the street from people who are and can really get some change into the works by looking locally instead of trying to find "the fix" for all the church's perceived equality problems.bbmarronehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07405401846717136696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-55693507874874189202012-12-27T12:19:23.648-08:002012-12-27T12:19:23.648-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.bbmarronehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07405401846717136696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-83304783145405144742012-12-24T12:55:14.971-08:002012-12-24T12:55:14.971-08:00James,
I appreciate the tone you're trying to...James,<br /><br />I appreciate the tone you're trying to create here. However, when Anne tries to bring up legitimate points about your approach you label her as "defensive." That's a label that shuts down dialogue rather than encouraging it.<br /><br />Again, I appreciate your motives here. But to discuss gender in the Church without addressing the larger issues involved (purposely limiting yourself to much smaller, less controversial issues) is a bit confusing to me. What's the purpose? Personally, it seems to be a bit of a smokescreen that talks around the issue while telling people to ignore the elephant in the room.<br /><br />--Mahonri<br />Mahonri Mackay Stewarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01853946746335800987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-38686520831094794972012-12-22T14:50:06.192-08:002012-12-22T14:50:06.192-08:00Here's a couple of side by side look at two of...Here's a couple of side by side look at two of the lessons in the new young men/ young women books. http://www.dovesandserpents.org/wp/2012/10/manuals/ and http://www.dovesandserpents.org/wp/2012/10/another-look-ymyw-manuals/ Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-17264958098922184722012-12-22T09:18:41.383-08:002012-12-22T09:18:41.383-08:00Because of the history of some of my extended fami...Because of the history of some of my extended family, I would have to say that unless I knew the family well, I might have the same rule when my wee one is a little older. However, there are some families I know personally where I may actually be more comfortable with the dad there than the mom, but it's a family-by-family thing for me. <br />I think it depends on a child's age as to when they start contextualizing gender/generational separation and how it's explained. Sadly, the church doesn't help much with its modesty rhetoric that implies men cannot control themselves and are just that much more likely to do something inappropriate. But that will get me on a whole other tangent..... Lobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07921291768879322592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-57190420036534623862012-12-22T08:55:28.290-08:002012-12-22T08:55:28.290-08:00Re: #4 in Emily's comment.
I've been thi...Re: #4 in Emily's comment. <br /><br />I've been thinking about career and church, and one thing I think is worth mentioning is that the church doesn't seem to care whether a man's career is self-actualizing or interesting or anything like that. The church message on career for men (in my experience) is primarily that as a man, you have a responsibility to strive to provide basic economic security for your family. <br /><br />Now, I don't remember anyone in church taking me to task for choosing theatre as an undergraduate major. But there certainly was some concern in my extended family. And I certainly felt significant internal pressure to reconcile my field of study with my responsibilities: was I being foolish or selfish in pursuing arts, or doing something that would be useful enough to justify the risks in the end? <br /><br />I don't want to say the church pressure for men to provide is bad. In fact, I think it helps keeps us family-centered rather than self-centered. <br /><br />I just think it's possible to think that the church wants men to enjoy their careers and women to endure the difficulties of home-making...when actually, I don't think the church sees careers as routes of self-actualization at all. As far as the church is concerned, joy comes from relationships with God, family, and community and work is a fairly tangential (though necessary) way to support those relationships. <br /><br />James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-66044598376381209142012-12-22T08:33:26.354-08:002012-12-22T08:33:26.354-08:00Primary has been my favorite callings. I'm all...Primary has been my favorite callings. I'm all for more men there. <br /><br />As far as children's fears: I know a woman whose rule for her young kids is that they can only go play at friends' houses when the mom is home. Mom--dad at home doesn't count. <br /><br />She probably has her own good reasons for making a rule like that and I certainly am not going to argue with her right to do what she thinks she needs to to protect her children. But surely an eight-year-old who grows up with a rule like that internalizes a little of the implicit fear. I don't think kids are that oblivious. James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-32009833632800287232012-12-22T08:28:25.502-08:002012-12-22T08:28:25.502-08:00Re: YW/YM curriculum. It will be interesting to se...Re: YW/YM curriculum. It will be interesting to see what the new curriculum is like. I don't know much about it, but it was on the second cover of the Ensign and people in my ward seem pretty psyched. So we'll have to watch what changes.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-73900186930355506572012-12-22T08:20:17.685-08:002012-12-22T08:20:17.685-08:00I hereby call you to repentance. For, um...using a...I hereby call you to repentance. For, um...using acronyms! Don't you know that every time you use capital letters needlessly, an angel gains a pound? Or something! Dramatic like that!<br /><br />I would like to point out, though, that when I call someone to repentance, it's not a denouncement. People I've denounced I always encourage to sin...James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-31716870325652878882012-12-22T00:14:21.326-08:002012-12-22T00:14:21.326-08:002) I gotta disagree with you on this one my friend...2) I gotta disagree with you on this one my friend. As my mission trainer said "There are 3 lessons in YW/Singles Ward RS: Preparing to be a wife and mother, honoring the Priesthood, and chastity." I remember shocking my Sunday School teacher when I was 12 or 13 when I told him I wanted a career and didn't have being a mom as my foremost goal(but if that happened, then that was cool too.)While I thankfully had awesome YW leaders who were more concerned with helping me develop a relationship with God and the Savoir than teaching me the divine purpose of deodorant (yes, there is a hygiene lesson), I was even then bothered by how MANY lessons seemed to be about being a (stay-at-home) wife and mother and no other options were really discussed. Education was important, but that was just the thing you did before you became a SAHM. Now being a wife and mom is totally important, but COMPLETELY dependent on another person. Even then this disturbed me that my male counterparts were preparing for things they could do independently (priesthood duties, prepare for the temple, serve a mission), and I was supposed to prepare for something that potentially may not happen. I guess in that sense women do have a lot more open possibilities, but they can make some feel like they did something wrong.<br /><br />3) I don't have too many strong opinions on the volunteering thing. I have seen a variety of responses in different wards, but that seems very dependent on the local church or surrounding culture. <br /><br />4) The last one is suuuuper complicated because you're looking at how men socialize in groups vs. women, which is a huge thing that has been studied in many different cultures all over the world. It would probably best be learned about from a cultural anthropology or a sociological point of view with some evolutionary biology thrown in there for good measure. But since you have me instead, I'll just say that men and women can be separately but equally dysfunctional. I do think women are more attuned to the emotions of others, and it may be due to biology, spitritualogy, social conditioning or (likely) a combo of all, but just being attuned doesn't always mean that ability will be used for good. Now the church encourages people to be good to each other, so often this ability IS used for good, but I don't think the male groups have any kind of monopoly on treating their own gender with rudeness or disdain. Women are often just better at hiding it (not always though.) That said, neither hubby or I have experienced anything that bad apart from some "meh" Priesthood/RS groups in the wards we've been in. I know he has actually enjoyed getting to know some of the older men and one of the men who blessed our baby was a HP he had become friends with just from church interaction. <br /><br />I used a lot of acronyms. <br /><br />Also, I'll leave with one thought that this has made me think about. On a FB discussion, someone brought up the point that in marriage we're commanded to become one. Perhaps instead of thinking this means we have to get into some really extreme gender-roles/jobs to become the absolute most masculine/feminine we can, it's actually about learning the characteristics of the other and trying to incorporate that into what we already have so we can increase our capacity. <br />I hope that makes sense. It's a wee late. Looking forward to continuing this conversation, though I have noticed there is a severe lack of calling anyone to repentance on your blog for such a heated topic. Perhaps someone will do me the honors, but I'd prefer an up-front, dramatic denouncement. The passive-aggressive ones are just not fun.<br /><br />Lobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07921291768879322592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-22475128665043595372012-12-22T00:12:09.947-08:002012-12-22T00:12:09.947-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07921291768879322592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-40483371892571278992012-12-22T00:10:52.777-08:002012-12-22T00:10:52.777-08:00So in reading all the post and comments, I'm s...So in reading all the post and comments, I'm still not precisely sure what kind of response you were looking for-although my intellectual ego was quite puffed for being asked. So here's some thoughts:<br /><br />Yay for talking nicely. That is a good thing, though I don't think you'll be able to eliminate completely the intense feelings because for some of us (hey, I'm being all sneaky and mean ME), it was those intense feelings in spite of trying to be objective that got us down this path of questioning in the first place. Perhaps I shall share the specific details of my own experiences eventually. Then you could have the privilege of saying you were the one who got me blogging again, hehehehe.<br /><br />OK, now for this list. I like numbered thoughts.<br />1) I think we need more men in primary and nursery. Theories on why they aren't as often involved with children:<br />1-Traditionally this is viewed as "woman's work" in both church and American culture. In some culture-pockets this is viewed as "lesser" work, though I have never experienced that in the church itself, but that's not to say some members don't subtly carry that belief whether they are male or female because it sometimes comes from the outside culture. <br />2-We have hammered into our church culture the belief that women are somehow inherently better at dealing with children simply by virtue of them being a woman, whether they've had kids or not. While I would argue women are infinitely better at birthing children than men are, I have known many men who are stellar with kids (my own hubby included.) I believe if we were more open to letting men develop their nurturing attributes, we would be surprised by how many stellar primary teachers we would have who would actually enjoy it too! I can't tell you how many women in primary have told me they crave adult interaction after being with children all week only to be back with children on Sunday. I view this as a negative result of our over-emphasis of rigid gender characteristics. Many of those characteristics are encouraged or omitted from youth-age onward (YM aren't given lessons on nurturing their families because that's what "women do" and YW aren't given lessons on providing for their families.)<br />3-Your point about sexual/physical abuse is well-founded. I have several friends and family who have suffered abuse at the hands of men in the church and it's a real concern. However, the children themselves are not likely to think they should be afraid, so it's more about creating an environment of accountability and safety for everyone. I also wonder if men are taught to have relationships/work with children, if it will help because they will not view themselves as so separate and removed and can engage emotionally in their community where most American culture does not often give them an opportunity to do so.<br /><br />Lobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07921291768879322592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-68950090573630193402012-12-21T21:59:48.125-08:002012-12-21T21:59:48.125-08:00I certainly don't feel like I've proven an...I certainly don't feel like I've proven anything with this post. <br /><br />What I wanted to do is to call attention to differences in gender experiences without labeling them as inequalities and then to suggest that we could probably work on several things to improve the quality of each gender's experience of church without having to argue over definitions of inequality. <br /><br />For instance--I don't think someone has to accept a premise of gross gender inequality in the church to see a good argument for more men in primary. All you have to believe is that a) girls benefit from positive relationships with adult men and b) many girls don't have enough of those relationships in their immediate and extended families. We can discuss those issues without feeling defensive...so why not do so? <br /><br />If we're comparing privilege, I have all kinds--I'm highly educated, I'm filthy rich on any fair historical or global scale, I come from several large and supportive extended families, I have a voice that carries and a face people remember, I know how to make food that makes people like me better...the list goes on and on. <br /><br />But I think there's a straight shot from acknowledging any of my privileges to figuring out what our community can work on. I think it might be faster to start by discussing how different people experience the church and then go from there. What do they need? What could be better? <br /><br />James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-11364754684975860112012-12-21T21:45:57.010-08:002012-12-21T21:45:57.010-08:00Interesting that you see less inter-generational a...Interesting that you see less inter-generational accord among the men than the women. Watching my teenagers' experience, it seems that the young men have quite a few more institutional opportunities to interact with the men, than the YW do with the RS. The men have opening exercises together with the YM, do service projects together, fill home teaching assignments. When I was RS pres., it was like pulling teeth to get the RS and the YW pointed in the same direction (though we did do the optional program of having opening exercises together once a month). We received a lot of encouragement to facilitate transition into RS, but we had to do it outside of existing programs.<br /><br />Of course, that's youth, and you're talking about adults. Funny that it's the men who are later divided into quorums, while the women from 18-108 meet together. <br /><br />From my perspective, the boys have more opportunities for real, recognized, meaningful service than the girls. The boys are at church early and late every week, getting the sacrament ready, shoveling the snow, ushering, collecting fast offerings, taking the sacrament to shut-ins. My daughter pretty much just has to show up. Which leads to a lot more over-the-pulpit commendations for the boys--they're the ones doing most of the work! <br /><br />Interesting discussion, and commentsLee Annhttp://lookunderthings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-12709080625054782082012-12-21T20:18:53.958-08:002012-12-21T20:18:53.958-08:00James,
You start off your post with a plea for neu...James,<br />You start off your post with a plea for neutrality, yet I did not find any of your explanations in your “list” neutral. Your interpretation of anecdotal events seems clearly set. <br /><br />You start off with male/female relationships. This is an important point of discussion, yet I could not find evidence to support your broad generalizations. You jumped from issue to issue extensively throughout that portion and I am still unclear as to what exactly you were trying to say. I believe that you are saying that men have a good relationship with women in the church due to primary (if that is not what you are saying, then let me know). If boys are more attached to women because women are more present in their formative years, then wouldn’t it make sense, in order to “fix” the girl/man relationship, to call more men to primary callings? Women are often placed with children both in the home and in the church. This can be infantizing and limiting to women’s spiritual and personal growth. <br /><br />Your second argument is equally convoluted. Male and female expectations within the church are different, but I don’t think that women have much more choice. Young women are groomed for temple marriage in ways that young men are not. As a young woman I had lessons on how to dress for a date and designing temple gowns. Such activities would never be a part of a male curriculum. Even in the new young men and young women lesson books there is a great disparity in male and female leadership. Leaders are frequently asked to have young men assume leadership roles, where the equivalent lessons for young women still remain more passive. <br /><br />I am not certain what volunteering has to do with inequality. I just do not understand it’s place in your post. While the anecdotes and the differences are interesting, I don’t see it’s place in a discussion of inequalities. I do think that women are more likely to volunteer their time, without speaking to a spouse, when the service would not affect the husband (example: bringing a meal to another family would not have a great impact on the husband, as it would most likely be prepared when he was away and be delivered in a short amount of time). If a husband is working his time with his family is valuable and so, he may need to check with his spouse before committing that time to service. If we’re speaking from personal experience, I have been far less likely to volunteer when I am the working spouse than when I am a SAHM. When I am working, I feel my time belongs to my family first, where as when I am staying home with my children I feel more freedom to serve and volunteer. Also, when I was staying home I felt more pressure to volunteer, because otherwise I felt that I was disconnected and would not be seen as doing my part. <br /><br />I know that you do not see which gender “has it better.” I would urge you, as you pursue this task of discussing gender differences in the church, to look at this fabulous blog post about Mormon male privilege. I think sometimes it is difficult to recognize our own place of privilege. http://www.the-exponent.com/mormon-male-privilege-and-how-to-make-apparent-gender-disparity-in-the-church/<br /><br />Happy writings and thanks for inviting response <br />Anne<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-40177764503833401242012-12-21T18:16:15.797-08:002012-12-21T18:16:15.797-08:00I think the part of the discussion we need to get ...I think the part of the discussion we need to get to is whether they are good or bad (and more importantly, how the experiences reflect adherence or opposition to gospel doctrines), and also even further than that in the discussion is what we can do to help the experience be in line with the gospel - whether that involves, as James has suggested, sharing messages from our leaders, or if it involves strengthening one another to deal with and endure less-than-Zion circumstances.<br /><br />I, personally, would love to hear some more examples of gender related differences - but only if we can also talk about what makes the in line or not with gospel principles and what we can do to help improve the overall experiences of members.<br /><br />And as long as we can keep in mind that a negative experience for one person may be a positive experience for another, and visa versa - which is why I think focusing on "differences of experience" is much more useful than talking about "inequality".<br /><br />I look forward to your responses :)Beccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01667724269493668949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-33709115129640881512012-12-21T18:00:19.412-08:002012-12-21T18:00:19.412-08:00I'll write a real response next, but in case i...I'll write a real response next, but in case it takes awhile, I was wondering if you would also be interested in hearing some of the things others have noticed as gender-based differences in the church and whether they think those are positive or negative. I personally have seen a variety and with different results and often mixed results as opposed to all good or all bad, though some of them seem to lean more in a positive or negative direction.Lobbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07921291768879322592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-29555110640495836812012-12-21T15:20:42.614-08:002012-12-21T15:20:42.614-08:001) Everything in this list are observations, not q...1) Everything in this list are observations, not questions posed for the sake of conversation, so I’m left to ask (and answer) my own questions about them. So why does it matter that little boys are taught to trust their Primary president but little girls are kept at arms’ length from their bishops? <br /><br />This goes back to my comment about zoning issues when building Zion within Mammon. The fact of the matter is that there ARE child molesters among us and, like it or not, the majority are male. In a fully Zion community, there probably will be much closer relationships between children (particularly girls) and adult men. As a Cub Scout leader, I would add that in Scouts, at least, there’s no double-standard here. Women leaders are also subject to the “Two-deep Leadership” and “No One-on-One Contact” rules that the men are. <br /><br />This is relevant to the “Pants to Church” issue because, from the time they’re little, girls are being taught that men are dangerous. How can we ever have a discussion about gender in the Church and NOT have it be emotionally charged when fear of men is being instilled in our girls? The roots of some of these gender issues run very deep.<br /><br />At the same, there is a genuine need to protect these little ones. Perhaps the Scouts are on to something that could be helpful more generally in the Church. Each Cub Scout manual has an insert for the parents to discuss issues of child abuse (how to avoid it when possible and telling someone if abuse occurs), but the responsibility for keeping these boys safe rests squarely on the leaders. In particular, the policy of “No One-on-One Contact” is driven home with a pile driver. We are charged with actively preventing even the possibility of abuse and the adults are to watch each other for problems, not leave it up to the kids to keep themselves safe. The adults police themselves, or to put it in a more doctrinal parlance, the shepherds keep vigilant watch over their sheep and drive out any wolf from among them (Alma 5:59).<br /><br />Of course, that policy would have ramifications for things like bishops’ interviews, and so I’m not sure how or if it might be implemented (though I think it could be). Regardless, if EVERY adult, male and female, were expected to make the effort of preventing one-on-one contact, this fear would probably be lessened. My mind would certainly be more at ease.<br /><br />Going back to “zoning issues” though, Western society expects men to be more aloof. I’ve commented to my husband about it before, that it’s just as unfair expect men to be the strong, aloof dominant male as it is to expect women to be submissive, emotionally-driven beings. It’s becoming more socially acceptable for men to be moved to tears, but we’re not anywhere near comfortable with the idea of men being as free to express their emotions as women are. In a fully Zion society, men would be as open with their emotions as the Savior is (see 3 Nephi 17 in particular, where he weeps because his joy is full in the children before him). Until that ideal of masculinity is achieved, we as a Church culture have much work to do in helping the brethren feel more comfortable working toward that ideal. I’d love to read THAT priesthood lesson or conference talk! :)Hillaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07966370717526592703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-61879611132293437822012-12-21T15:16:13.627-08:002012-12-21T15:16:13.627-08:00She does say it would help if "more at least ...She does say it would help if "more at least recognized ways in which women in the church do have some stewardship over them." So it seems like at least part of what Emily is calling for is just better education. James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-32729941105824003012012-12-21T14:50:30.838-08:002012-12-21T14:50:30.838-08:00Except that women do have stewardship over men in ...Except that women do have stewardship over men in many instances, both directly and indirectly. We don't hold priesthood leadership positions, but that doesn't negate all areas of stewardship. Maybe I'm not understanding--what areas do you think women should be given stewardship over and how do you think that should work?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-84411311289946748722012-12-21T14:03:59.593-08:002012-12-21T14:03:59.593-08:00I posted this comment on a facebook thread James s...I posted this comment on a facebook thread James started, but I figured I'd add it to the conversation here, since not everyone is engaged in the fb thread.<br /><br />I have a few thoughts. <br /><br />1. I absolutely agree that the term "inequality" is problematic and that it's often counter-productive to conversations. Personally, I've wanted to get rid of the terms "oppress" and all variations of "equal" in gender discussions for the reasons you've listed. The way I've been explaining it to friends for a few years now is that if all I wanted was for men and women to be equal, that would mean tearing down whoever appears to be doing better until they're on the same level. I see inequality as a symptom of other problems that need fixing. Which means that instances of apparent inequality bear further investigation before anyone tries to resolve them. <br /><br />2. The points you raise all seem interesting to me and worth considering. I'm intrigued by your decision to focus on inter-gender relationships, since it's in the personal that most experience the political. <br /><br />3. That being said, your discussion didn't really talk about differing and overlapping leadership responsibilities or the way that those experiences impact individual perceptions of gender. Or about rigid gender roles, though you hinted at it a little bit. I know you were looking to talk about some areas not often covered, and I know your discussion is operating in a new paradigm, but leadership responsibilities and opportunities all play into personal gendered interactions. In creating a different paradigm, your discussion veers a bit toward creating a "the other side" approach, which is by definition always going to be an incomplete side.<br /><br />4. To respond to a specific area of your post: I'd add to your discussion of how the future is more specifically mapped out for young men that on a cultural level (and it's still unclear to what extent this mapping is backed by doctrine or leadership), the specific expectations swing back in the other direction for life from the mid-twenties and on, placing some very specific expectations on women, while simultaneously offering more options for men. If women are meant to aspire toward a career as a stay-at-home mom, while men are meant to aspire toward any number of unique and fulfilling careers, then that's a terrible position for women to be in, and it's an expectation that doesn't end after two years. But again, it's increasingly unclear to what extent that responsibility is grounded in the gospel and to what extent it's cultural. <br /><br />5. It looks like someone might have brought this up on your blog, but simply feeling close to a female leader, does not mean that a boy will grow into a man who respects women when they are in authority positions or who even perceives women as capable of having stewardship over men in the way he sees men as having stewardship over women. And those perspectives have repercussions. We've all seen it in little ways, such as when a recent RM closes his notes during general conference because the speaker is a woman. But what are the subtle repercussions of nearly one-half of the church population (men) being deprived of leadership from women? As a woman, I am under the stewardship of both men and women. And I like it that way. I think men would benefit if more at least recognized ways in which women in the church do have some stewardship over them, even if that stewardship isn't direct.Emilyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13794894633747852280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-20342454519685077522012-12-21T12:50:38.529-08:002012-12-21T12:50:38.529-08:00One last preamble before I start commenting on the...One last preamble before I start commenting on the list itself. :) Whether we’re looking at misogyny or misandry, the root of both is hate. A lot of the differences in the way gender plays out in the Church (whether it’s doctrine, policy, or culture) comes from the fact that we’re trying to build Zion in the midst of the slums of mammon. There are zoning issues. ;) <br /><br />Another thought that I had was that hatred against women has doctrinal roots and goes back to the Garden of Eden, but not to the Tree of Knowledge. Satan can set up priestcrafts to combat the Priesthood, but he can’t touch the procreative power that resides in Eve and her daughters. God himself placed a protective enmity between Lucifer and The Woman (and that seed of life she bears), enmity that Satan uses to devastating effect. I’m probably misunderstanding a lot of what happened in those verses of Genesis, but I think the takeaway is that the procreative power as expressed in the family is something Satan has a particular, driving hatred for. What better way to attack those sacred relationships (husband and wife, mother and father, son and daughter) than to sow hatred between male and female? Anytime we discuss gender in the Church, I think that doctrinal truth should be in the back of our minds: anything less than love is enmity. Hillaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07966370717526592703noreply@blogger.com