tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post1937808606979710276..comments2023-11-05T03:06:30.977-08:00Comments on Mormon Midrashim: Setting the Record Straight on Romney's Family History: The Murder of Parley P. PrattJames Goldberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-25211700745496755212012-09-20T22:08:54.496-07:002012-09-20T22:08:54.496-07:00Nice to have another cousin, however extended, han...Nice to have another cousin, however extended, hanging around the blog!James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-40775581181165088962012-09-20T13:00:27.295-07:002012-09-20T13:00:27.295-07:00James, I thank you for this wonderful compilation ...James, I thank you for this wonderful compilation of the Pratt story. As another of his great-great-great-grandchildren (through Moroni Walker Pratt, born to Ann Agatha Walker Pratt, wife #8, I believe), this story was not told in my home growing up. His great granddaughter, my grandmother, found the whole history distasteful and refused to discuss it, although she highly revered her pioneer ancestor, and lived her life as a devout member of the church. I have learned my family history in snippets and articles and lines in books here and there. The pieces that came to me in the form of family-lore were all incorrect and far more sordid than the actual events themselves. <br /><br />Having followed your blog for some time with more than a little admiration, I flatter myself now to consider you my well-written cousin. Thank you again.lchastonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16430871454454141171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-55427051562923755692012-09-20T12:47:45.155-07:002012-09-20T12:47:45.155-07:00Women in the Utah Territory had the right to vote ...Women in the Utah Territory had the right to vote in 1870. Women in Wyoming had the right to vote in 1869. When the U.S. Government denied statehood to Utah because of polygamy, they did indeed strip the rights of women in that territory to vote. Women in Utah joined the suffrage movement and regained the right to vote as part of the Utah State Constitution when Utah was granted statehood -- still well before the constitutional amendment that granted all women in the U.S. that right. This Website offers better details: http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/statehood_and_the_progressive_era/womenssuffrageinutah.htmllchastonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16430871454454141171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-35222805182105233252012-05-22T19:03:38.555-07:002012-05-22T19:03:38.555-07:00I would write something about it, but I am not nea...I would write something about it, but I am not nearly deseret enough. <br /><br />(Note to the confused: according to Kantor's article, "deseret" is an adjective meaning "industrious as a honeybee." "What a Friend We Have in Jesus" is also a typical LDS hymn). <br /><br />Honestly, I am not really bothered by either article. There are LDS influences on Romney as a politician: yes. There are LDS people who, inspired by their religious values, have never voted for a Republican presidential candidate: also yes (and yeah, I'm one of those). <br /><br />So, I appreciate Kantor's interest in making some LDS connections and I also appreciate Rubin's interest in asking where connections bleed over into stereotypes. And I'm grateful to both for leaving my poor blood pressure just where it belongs.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-13482788827210782522012-05-22T14:44:59.686-07:002012-05-22T14:44:59.686-07:00I wonder, James, what you think of the recent arti...I wonder, James, what you think of the recent article in the NYT about Romney as well as this commentary on it by Jennifer Rubin:<br /><br />http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/the-mormon-obsession/2012/05/20/gIQATyBPdU_blog.html<br /><br />You have written so much on the media's treatment of Romney's Mormonism that I would love to know what your thoughts are.craigaestephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18232398539484002140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-27605282794835301422012-05-22T13:49:33.370-07:002012-05-22T13:49:33.370-07:00.
Related:
Before Utah had given women the vote,....<br /><br />Related:<br /><br />Before Utah had given women the vote, a bill was introduced to Congress called something like a Bill to Stop Polygamy; all the bill did was give Utahn women the vote, with the idea that they would then end polygamy themselves.<br /><br />The bill's sponsor was shocked when Utah's politicians and newspapers and people enthusiastically supported the bill, notwithstanding its name and desired ultimate effect. <br /><br />Naturally, the bill then died.Mr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10844222029915042003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-67984025501585300072012-05-22T13:04:33.204-07:002012-05-22T13:04:33.204-07:00.
Not necessarily, no, but in this case the two w....<br /><br />Not necessarily, no, but in this case the two were clearly and deliberately marketed together.Th.http://thmazing.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-38561381952154332082012-05-22T10:19:35.700-07:002012-05-22T10:19:35.700-07:00Polygamy had been outlawed years before women'...Polygamy had been outlawed years before women's suffrage. The outlawing of polygamy had nothing whatsoever to do with stripping the vote from women.Michael Paul Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09043816143816729544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-15078602720373342152012-05-22T08:24:07.429-07:002012-05-22T08:24:07.429-07:00In terms of the number of Pratt's wives: you a...In terms of the number of Pratt's wives: you are absolutely correct about Pratt having been married twelve times. But because Pratt's first wife had died and two of his wives had divorced him, Eleanor was the ninth simultaneous wife. <br /><br />So Pareene got that right in one of the two possible ways.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-51320735071524133302012-05-22T08:17:26.916-07:002012-05-22T08:17:26.916-07:00I think it's bit of a stretch to equate Pratt ...I think it's bit of a stretch to equate Pratt possibly having shot a member of a then-rogue militia that was shooting at him with McLean's extralegal murder of the unarmed Pratt. And to believe that Pratt could have gotten a fair trial under the Missouri administration that had issued an explusion-or-extermination order on Mormons is highly idealistic of you. <br /><br />There were no legal custody proceedings over Eleanor's children--Hector had simply sent them to New Orleans without his wife's consent. And I'm a bit surprised you feel that a 37-year-old woman has a moral obligation to bow to the wishes of her parents no matter what. <br /><br />We don't have any record about the children's feelings at the time, one of them shows up as an adult on the 1870 Utah census living near Eleanor--which suggests to me that he at least had strong enough positive feelings toward his mother to strike out on his own and make his way to her. <br /><br />And yes, I am suggesting that her marriage to an open polygamist is insufficient grounds to treat her as insane or strip her of her rights. After all, what reasoning can you use to strip Eleanor of her rights to her own children that wouldn't rob others of their rights? <br /><br />If you think she forfeited her rights by joining a backward religion, what about Jews who Christians for centuries saw as impossibly backward? <br /><br />If you think she forfeited her rights because she knew her husband wasn't monogamous, do women who find about husbands' affairs and stay with them also deserve to lose their children? <br /><br />If you think she forfeited her rights because she made choice you don't agree with, can I take your kids from you for disagreeing with my blog post? <br /><br />In America today, we've largely realized that there's not a good standard for using simple social deviance to take rights. So we try to support parents' rights unless there's a demonstrable history of intentional neglect or of direct danger to the children.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-15767847415063812222012-05-22T01:01:10.748-07:002012-05-22T01:01:10.748-07:00One element you neglected to mention from the hist...One element you neglected to mention from the historical record--even as you vilify Pareene for his oversights--is that Parley P. Pratt was traveling under an alias when he was murdered.<br /><br />The reason for that was there was still a Missouri warrant for him for murder stemming from the Battle of Crooked River in 1838. He escaped Columbia Jail in 1839 and never faced charges. <br /><br />I find it ironic you condemn the 1857 justice system that allowed Hector Mclean to go unpunished but overlook the fact that Eleanor Mclean attempted to "kidnap"her own children and spirit them off to Utah, against the wishes of her parents who saw her as a deranged woman who'd joined a particularly strange cult. <br /><br />Or are you suggesting there is something "sane" about a woman accepting her place as Pratt's 12th wife (Pareene had that one wrong)? My own great-grandmother settled for second wife status is 1854, but that was because she'd just arrived here, and her "missionary," my g-g-grandfather, hadn't told her about the first wife.concolor1https://www.blogger.com/profile/08799414036510464249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-38832515800085480712012-05-21T14:51:22.931-07:002012-05-21T14:51:22.931-07:00As a Parley P Pratt descendant, I am grateful to h...As a Parley P Pratt descendant, I am grateful to have this story spelled out this way. I remember reading the details of his death a while back, maybe in the Church News or something, but it was not written as extensively as what you have done. It makes me sick to see the way his murder was treated both then and now. My son is named Parker in celebration of the man who has been so grossly defamed, and I appreciate you doing your part to set the record straight.bbmarronehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07405401846717136696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-11610385024471871222012-05-21T10:12:33.249-07:002012-05-21T10:12:33.249-07:00You can't look at the polygamy practiced at th...You can't look at the polygamy practiced at that time with what is in the news today. The Fundamentalist Church (no part of the real Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) will have you believe that they are practising the same polygamy as Mr. Pratt, but they are not. What they are doing is truly another form of abuse.AimeeLynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11963233775289131660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-61628898933534377352012-05-19T22:39:35.723-07:002012-05-19T22:39:35.723-07:00Started following you after your excellent Gay Mar...Started following you after your excellent Gay Marriage posts, and have not been disappointed with a single post since. Thank you for your amazing insights!Momma Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04443928712279824955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-71345752883833731632012-05-19T20:32:41.217-07:002012-05-19T20:32:41.217-07:00James, beautifully done. You are slowly and brill...James, beautifully done. You are slowly and brilliantly becoming one of our truly gifted commentators on so many challening issues. God Bless You.Neal Kramernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-70530562537068688892012-05-19T14:30:31.320-07:002012-05-19T14:30:31.320-07:00As always James, an insightful article, and fighti...As always James, an insightful article, and fighting the stupidity of the masses. If you cannot go back and verify the information your sources contain in any scholarly way, you shouldn't be writing at all. Alas, in parallel with the American political machine basically being broken, we've known for a long time now that the media machine gave up the ghost years ago.Sarraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468399841447827078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-34895439923865637362012-05-19T14:29:22.872-07:002012-05-19T14:29:22.872-07:00Excellent-thanks for adding clarity to the media c...Excellent-thanks for adding clarity to the media cloud covering this election. My best to you and yours.Roxanna L. Boyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00407761590635853097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-15565570113205436542012-05-19T11:13:18.095-07:002012-05-19T11:13:18.095-07:00Good points well stated.Good points well stated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-32118087098946401422012-05-19T06:05:10.378-07:002012-05-19T06:05:10.378-07:00Yeah, I think it's better to say that abuses c...Yeah, I think it's better to say that abuses can occur within polygamy than to say all polygamous marriage through history are inherently abusive. I mean, there have been people who argued on the basis of dysfunctional monogamous marriages that the whole institution of marriage is oppressive and should be done away with. But that ignores people who have been quite successful in and happy with marriage. <br />There are plenty of sad stories in 19th-century Mormon polygamy. But there are also many stories of people who did fine in the system--I think it waters down the concept of abuse to make it cover both dysfunctional and functional relationships.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-25776200439049996152012-05-18T22:44:30.146-07:002012-05-18T22:44:30.146-07:00Thank-you for taking the time to set the record st...Thank-you for taking the time to set the record straight on this complex and tragic story. I've quit reading pretty much all commentary about early LDS leaders, present LDS leaders and ESPECIALLY political candidates who are LDS. It's just so tiresome to see the same dead horses being flogged over and over, ad nauseum. <br />I do appreciate, however, the fact that YOU ARE reading the commentaries and columns and responding to them with well considered and well written articles such as this one. <br />Thank-you.Sandra and Brenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15646331957418568279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-69997090091332511932012-05-18T18:26:07.518-07:002012-05-18T18:26:07.518-07:00Anonymous #2 -- Women in polygamy-era Utah had the...Anonymous #2 -- Women in polygamy-era Utah had the right to vote, unlike almost anywhere else in the nation. Education, especially higher education in medical fields, was highly encouraged & funded to some degree. I'm not a fan of polygamy, but I'm also a BIG fan of women's suffrage & education. When the US Gov't outlawed polygamy, they also stripped the vote from all of those women.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-54924917732425289082012-05-18T17:25:48.140-07:002012-05-18T17:25:48.140-07:00It is too bad Salon did not publish your piece as ...It is too bad Salon did not publish your piece as a contrasting viewpoint. It would have made for an interesting dialogue, which you would think would be useful and interesting.<br /><br />Anonymous #2: I am not comfortable with polygamy myself (and I am Mormon). However, I would not call it a form of abuse at the time that it was originally practiced. However, any deception that might be used currently among groups have broken off from Mormonism and their need for secrecy certainly might lend itself to abuse.Kate Sherwoodhttp://todayadvocatingtomorrow.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-13562178088662850352012-05-18T14:34:11.219-07:002012-05-18T14:34:11.219-07:00Thanks for this nuanced and detailed response, Jam...Thanks for this nuanced and detailed response, James, and I agree, Salon should publish it, or at least a detailed correction to Pareene's article (and I'm usually a fan of his.) <br /><br />Anonymous #1--for a great pivot off of the Joe Kennedy plot point, see Bob Oeste's wonderful revisionist history novel, "The Last Pumpkin Paper," which is all about the rise of Nixon during the Alger Hiss case and, 40 years later, the fall of the Berlin Wall.Greg Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12476688473774894464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-57992220596746582212012-05-18T13:20:10.197-07:002012-05-18T13:20:10.197-07:00so basically she ran from one form of abuse to ano...so basically she ran from one form of abuse to another. Sad story.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2127231318556758701.post-80570472664202968782012-05-18T12:48:11.333-07:002012-05-18T12:48:11.333-07:00Wow man, Never got this deep into the history. Im ...Wow man, Never got this deep into the history. Im in agreement that people really like to gloss over the history of a person , without putting all the facts into place. I mean, hey, will Salon put in writing that Joe Kennedy, the father of a president, and multiple senators, and congressmen , and a member of the cabinet himself. While under the presidency of Rosevelt, was calling Adolph Hitler "The 2nd coming of christ" and was making deals with him during the early days of the war. Never let that out will they. Somehow we will praise those people, for being slugs...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com